Triple J Hack

E&OE TRANSCRIPT Triple J – The Hack SUBJECT: Teacher Education Ministerial Advisory Group TOM TILLEY: To find out more about why we need this review and what it might achieve we actually have the Education Minister, Christopher Pyne, on the line. Christopher Pyne, thanks for joining us. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It's a pleasure. TOM TILLEY: You've announced a review into teacher training, what do you hope to change in the quality of teacher training? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: What we've discovered over the last few years as the Shadow Minister for Education and now the Minister for Education is that the principals who are hiring staff, the young students emerging from the university, from teacher training, and the Year Twelves choosing teaching as a profession, none of them are satisfied with the courses that they are doing at university. That is what the surveys are showing us, it's what anecdotal evidence tells us. There are far too many examples of teachers, young teachers, saying that they don't feel they were prepared for the classroom. And what we want to do is get the best advice possible and world's best practice so that we can implement that at the university level and ensure that our new teachers have the best possible training so that they want to be teachers for the rest of their lives and enjoy the experience. TOM TILLEY: In your opinion piece you said that education degrees are too theoretical, too ideological and faddish. What do you mean by those words in this context? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, it's certainly the case that over the last couple of decades there has been a fashion in teacher training. Some examples are things like whole language learning versus phonics or child centred learning where children are trained to teach themselves to enquire, rather than to actually have knowledge imparted to them. And the idea that everyone is a winner, that nobody's ever allowed to fail, which, of course, is not real world and not preparing our young people for the real world. They're fashions. And I want to see less theory, less fashion, and more practical, common-sense approaches too teacher training that - prepare our teachers for the classroom. TOM TILLEY: But have those techniques come in as just a fashion or are they research based teaching techniques? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, whatever they are they've led to a decline in our outcomes for students in the last ten years at least. We've spent forty-four per cent more on education over the last decade and our results have declined considerably, both in real terms and relatively against other OECD countries. So whether they are fashions based on research or on instinct, they are not working. And what we need to do is have an approach to teacher training that prepares our teachers for the classroom, that gives them the skills that they need to be able to impart knowledge to our young Australians. And let me just give you a very good example. The OECD last year, again, handed down another report on Australian teaching and in it they said that Australia, of all the countries in the OECD, the most important factor in a student's outcomes were the classroom that they had been placed in. Not the school, not their socioeconomic status, but the classroom. In other words, the teacher that was allocated to them at the beginning of every year. So the most important thing we can do as a Federal Government is address the issue of teacher training at universities because that's where I can have an influence since we are the majority funder and the regulator of universities. TOM TILLEY: Yeah, I'm sure no one would argue with you when it comes to improving teacher quality, everyone would like to see that, I guess it's the way you go about it. Is it really about changing the education of teachers or is it potentially about rewarding them better for the work they do? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, teacher training is the part of the jigsaw puzzle that I am responsible for. State and territory ministers are responsible for the remuneration and conditions of teacher. I can't... TOM TILLEY: Do you have a view on it though? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I can't impact on that at all. Yes, I certainly have a view on it. And if I was giving some advice to the state and territory education ministers I would say to them address the very archaic industrial relations structure of teaching. Teaching should be paid on the basis of merit, not on the basis of length of service. Young teachers should have a career path ahead of them where they can see more and more challenging jobs in the teaching profession. There shouldn't be a plateauing of teachers at a certain age which makes them less inclined to remain in the teaching profession over the course of their lives. These are all things that could be addressed by state and territory education ministers but I can't affect them so therefore I'm going to focus on a thing that I can affect, which is teacher training. TOM TILLEY: Christopher Pyne, what's your view on the entry score to get into a teaching degree? Because New South Wales have introduced a system where education students will need above eighty in their HSC in at least three subjects and one of them has to be English. Would you consider introducing this kind of system on a national level? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I'm delighted that New South Wales is addressing the issue of the kinds of teachers that they want to employ when they leave university, which I think is a perfectly - a good response from their point of view. I'm not obsessed with ATAR scores as an entry to university for teaching professions, because the ATAR score is just one indicator of aptitude. And about half of the people who go to university get in on the basis of their ATAR score and about half get in on other bases. Of course, an ATAR score really reflects the popularity of the course, it doesn't reflect, necessarily, the intellect of the individual. And many young people will go to university with low ATAR scores who with proper support at the university, proper pre university training and support along the way can turn out to be perfectly good teachers or professionals. And so I don't want to see the ATAR score becoming the blunt instrument that stops people with a vocation for teaching of getting into a course at which they might be best suited. TOM TILLEY: Okay, so you're ruling out an ATAR minimum for teaching student entrants? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Oh look, I'm not ruling anything in or out because I've just announced today the Ministerial Advisory Group which will advise me on the best way forward. But I'm just saying my own opinion is that ATAR scores are a blunt instrument. What the states and territories choose to do is a matter for them. My only focus is on students and their outcomes and I think more quality teacher training, world's best practice in our teaching institutions is the thing that I can impact upon in order to make sure that our students are first in all our thinking. TOM TILLEY: You are listening to the Education Minister, Christopher Pyne, on triple j's Hack program. Christopher Pyne, let's turn to the National Curriculum Review, another review you're expecting to have finished by the middle of the year. What's wrong with what people are being taught at school at the moment do you think? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, the National Curriculum has been in place for about three or four years in some jurisdictions and I think it's important to continually review it to make sure that it is robust. In the election campaign we indicated that we would address issues to do with the Curriculum, teacher quality, principal autonomy and parental engagement and we're going about getting on with that job. It's very important that the Curriculum is meaningful and useful and I don't believe that there should be three themes that infuse English, history, maths and science. For example, I don't believe that one of the themes, being Australia's place in Asia, or indigenous Australia, works particularly well in maths and I don't think we should try and put a square peg in a round hole, so to speak, I think the Curriculum should stand or fall on its own merits. I think the thematic approach is not a useful one for our students. But that's why I want it to be reviewed to see if I'm right or wrong. TOM TILLEY: There's been a lot of criticism that your review will be really based on ideology and a lot of people are pointing to the fact that you've hired Kevin Donnelly to be one of the heads of this review of the National Curriculum and that he has a very conservative stance on a lot of social issues, like whether or not homosexual people should be allowed to teach studies around relationships and sex in the classrooms. Is there a chance that this review will be ideologically biased? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No. And I think often ideology is in the eye of the beholder. I think Kevin Donnelly and Ken Wiltshire are both very qualified to review the Curriculum. In fact, Kevin Donnelly did some work on just the matter that you raised in terms of relationships and a lot of his work has been picked up and used in the schooling system. So I think you're probably referring to some very old work that has been selectively taken out of context and quoted. But, no, you'll never, in education, Tom, get everybody agreeing with you about things. The truth is that most people have a view about education because they've all been to school and many people have been to university. So the goal here is not to please everyone, it's not every child player wins a prize. It's about getting what we think is the best and most robust outcome. TOM TILLEY: Have you hired someone though that aligns particularly with your ideology in this situation? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, I've hired two people that I think are eminently qualified and likely to come up with a sensible response to the need to review the Curriculum, and I look forward to the work that they will do. TOM TILLEY: All right, Christopher Pyne we thank you for your time. I've just got one last question, it's from a listener. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yes. TOM TILLEY: And it relates to the segment coming up on the show about religion in schools. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: All right. TOM TILLEY: Kim has written in on Twitter. She says why is Christianity still taught in secular state schools instead of diverse, comparative religion and ethics? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, we are a civilisation that's based on the Judeo-Christian ethos of the last two thousand years. It's not inappropriate that religion be taught in state based schools, if that's the choice of state and territory education ministers. I'm not responsible for that aspect of schooling but I don't have any problem with religion, whether it's Christianity or Buddhism or Hinduism being imparted to students. They do need to know why we are the kind of country that we are. More than seventy per cent of Australians still identify as Christians. I don't - I'm not a person who wears religion on my sleeve but I'm quite comfortable with our Judeo-Christian heritage being taught in schools because it's a reality of the kind of society that we are. TOM TILLEY: Do you think there's too much religion, and particularly Christianity, taught in state schools and in private schools given the increase in the make-up of private schools in our schooling system? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well it's important that I think values are imparted to young people, whether they're values imparted by their families or by their teachers, by their principals, by their religious ministers, regardless of what religion they pursue. I don't think there's any harm in trying to educate the whole person in maths and science and sport and English and relationships and religion. I don't see any reason why young people shouldn't get the full panoply of experiences and then make their own choices. TOM TILLEY: Christopher Pyne, thanks for joining us on Hack today. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It's always a pleasure. [Unrelated items - jingle] TOM TILLEY: The Education Minister, Christopher Pyne. And there were so many more questions I would have liked to have asked him. But we will... Ends