Transcript - Two Chrisses - ABC 891 - 29 Mar 201

SUBJECTS: State Liberal Party; State Election results; Jay Weatherill; Malcolm Turnbull

David Bevan: Christopher Schacht. Good morning.

Chris Schacht: Good morning.

Bevan: Former ALP State Secretary, former Senator with the ALP. And Christopher Pyne, Liberal MP for Sturt.

Christopher Pyne: Good morning.

Bevan: Are you the Anti-Christ as depicted in the Advertiser today or are you just a naughty boy?

Pyne: The Advertiser also said I was a saviour. You just chose the nasty bits. My mother and I wife have decided to use the nice bit.

Bevan: You had quite a write up. Was it Greg Kelton who wrote that piece?

Pyne: Yes it was. A very fair and balanced piece. Greg Kelton is a very experienced and very good journalist.

Schacht: (inaudible) Suck up.

Pyne: I won't get a profile again for a long time, that's true.

Schacht: I have to say; when all your enemies are not willing to put their name to the adverse comments they made about you, it shows the willpower you have that they're not game because they think you've got the numbers to knock them off.....

Pyne: (inaudible)

Schacht: All the Liberal Party members who were asked about you who didn't like what you were doing all said off the record. Those who did like you did say things in other parties. But the real thing I've got to acknowledge is that you've obviously created a level of fear in the Liberal Party because no one who opposes you is game to say so because they know you've got the numbers to knock them off or as you did last week to put Hamilton-Smith in, for about a week as deputy leader.....

Pyne: Very exaggerated all this stuff. It's very exaggerated....

Schacht: One thing I agree with Nick Minchin on, you don't agree on. You've got to acknowledge, but he and you lead two different factions in the Liberal Party. He acknowledges it, you don't. And after today's story you just have to accept you're the power broker in South Australia.

Pyne: Ridiculous. I'm just very happy being the member for Sturt, the Shadow Minister for Education, the Manager of Opposition Business and looking after my little family. That's all I want to do, and all of my colleagues are very valued colleagues; all members of the team, and I want to work with them all.

Bevan: As the Member for Sturt who cares very much for his little family, what do you make of your other family, the State Liberal Party?....

Pyne: We are a very broad family the Liberal Party, and a happy family most of the time. I look after them all and hopefully they'll all look after me.

Bevan: But not so the last few days and can you give us your take on the remarkable events, that having won a swing of more than eight per cent against a very professional, very well entrenched government; a swing of more than eight per cent. Isobel Redmond, incredibly popular, is snubbed by her own party when she makes it quite clear who she wants as her (deputy) leader, and then we go through this debacle last week where eventually the person who was elected, Hamilton-Smith, is humiliated and has to stand down.

Pyne: Well the State Parliamentary Party is responsible for their own affairs and they manage their own affairs and the Federal Parliamentary Party manages its affairs. And I'm a federal member of parliament so it's my responsibility to look after Sturt and my patch, which I do and we returned Liberals in Norwood and Morlialta and done well in Torrens and Newland and Hartley. But I really do try and avoid getting embroiled in State Parliamentary Party matters.

Bevan: Are you saying you didn't have any involvement at all? You didn't make any phone calls to promote Martin Hamilton-Smith as the deputy?

Pyne: Well I can honestly say I didn't make any phone calls to promote Martin Hamilton-Smith as the deputy. I didn't pick up the phone and make any calls.

Schacht: But did they call you? The new member for Morialta is a former staffer of yours. Did he ring you for advice? Or the new member for Norwood; did he ring you for advice? Because they're in your patch and you can't have everything off the record, even in today's Advertiser Chris without it being accepted. You've obviously had a big say with Vickie Chapman in getting Hamilton-Smith up. Today we have bloke elected Deputy Leader who in the first ballot a week ago go three votes. He's now unanimous. I have to say, that is really something beyond Alice in Wonderland in what's going on.

Pyne: Well of course a Catholic and a believer you would know that in choosing the Pope the Holy Spirit moves in very mysterious ways and people who go in a Pope usually come out a Cardinal and people who go in a Cardinal usually come out a Pope so you just don't know how these things are going to go....

Bevan: What are you talking about?...

Pyne: What I'm saying is that democracy is a wonderful thing and the Liberal Party has chosen an excellent team in Isobel Redmond and Mitch Williams and they will do a great job. They balance city and country and experience. And I think what the Liberal Party now needs to do for the good of it's membership and the good of it's supporters is focus on holding the very poor State Labor Government to account....

Bevan: But doesn't this show, with all of the vices that surround the strict factional system in the Labor Party-this shows why you need it Chris Schacht. Otherwise you get this chaos that we've had in the Liberal Party.

Schacht: Well I don't think you need absolutely strict factional control, but what you do need is a fair bit of common sense. And Isobel Redmond has had a great run, but in the last ten days she's made the biggest mistake of her leadership in that she got rid of the deputy leader, who didn't have a great campaign on a couple of points, but he was part of the team that got an eight per cent swing. I think she should have just left him there and said "let's just see how we go over the next 12 to 18 months. You're all on a question mark about your performance". But to then say I'm bringing back on of the most factional people, a failed leader of the Liberal Party, Mr Evans to become the deputy again. And then he's opposed by another failed leader, and then he's opposed by the one who's now got the job who stood and knocked off Dale Baker, a former leader of the Liberal Party, as an independent, then joined the Liberal Party. And now after three votes in the first ballot, he's unopposed. I mean if I had to write this in a story as fact, people would say, "it's not even bizarre fiction Schachty; this just couldn't happen in a political party."

And Chris, you have to take, some of your fingerprints are there; you can't avoid it and I'm sorry until you sort a few other things out in my view, you're going to in the Liberal Party in the next couple of years. You're going to have to ask a few people to leave parliament. Iain Evans wanted to go and become the member for Mayo; he stood for pre-selection and then you're bringing him to be deputy leader. Is he going to be a senior shadow minister? Treasurer?.....

Pyne: You're writing the story.

Schacht: It is just bizarre. It is just bizarre what has been going on. I mean Labor Party from time to time, we do a good job on ourselves, but nothing matches this, nothing matches it.

Bevan: Christopher Pyne?

Pyne: Well on the Labor side of the equation of course they have re-elected a very unpopular deputy in Kevin Foley. They've learnt nothing at all from the election. The message from the election was the South Australian public was sick of arrogance.....

Bevan: If the election was held this week, you'd be lucky to get a one per cent swing towards you; not an eight per cent swing against the government. And there would be many people who voted Liberal two weeks ago thinking to themselves, "what were we thinking? Look at this unruly mob."

Pyne: Well on the Labor side of the equation Kevin Foley has been re-elected as the deputy and Pat Conlon's back in.....

Bevan: Do you deny that....

Pyne: (inaudible)

Bevan: Many people right now would be questioning whether or not they should have voted Liberal at the last state election.

Pyne: State politics is a very fluid thing and I think that the South Australian public...

Schacht: At the moment it's like a waterfall.

Pyne: And state politics is very fluid and I'm quite certain that the State party will now settle down and hold the government to account...

Bevan: Why would you think that? If they can do this....

Pyne: They've done a very good job in the last state election at holding them to account. They were coming off a low base, but the rebuilt to a point where in 2014 they are a real chance to win. I'd be very surprised of Mike Rann leads them to the next election. I think he's in exit strategy mode...

Bevan: Do you think Isobel Redmond will lead your party to the next state election?

Pyne: I think Isobel Redmond will lead our party to the next election and I'm certain Mitch Williams will be the deputy at the next state election.

Bevan: Why?

Pyne: Because I'm sure the State Liberal Party recognises the importance of unity and supporting each other and will go forward with a positive frame of mind and an alternative policy platform that the public will like. And I think the message from the Labor Party since they election is that they've learnt nothing at all. Mike Rann, Pat Conlon, Kevin Foley are all back, Tom Koutsantonis has been promoted. All back in the same positions with that very arrogant attitude the Government has had over the last eight years.

Bevan: How damaged is Isobel Redmond through all of this because there's no doubt that after the election there was an enormous amount of good will towards her. She won 52 per cent of the two party preferred vote.

Pyne: 51 point six per cent.

Schacht: She won a majority of the vote. No doubt about that.

Pyne: She won a majority of the vote and four seats.

Bevan: But you have to question her judgement now wouldn't you? Because here is somebody who couldn't count the numbers; here is somebody who didn't judge the mood of her own party or somebody who didn't send a clear enough signal. I mean you've got supporters of Martin Hamilton-Smith saying, "Oh, you know she said she didn't like Martin, but if we'd known the events of this week were going to happen we would just shut up and walked away".

Schacht: And the other thing today on your interview with Martin Hamilton-Smith. He said he tried to speak to her over Easter to find out what she really wanted and she wouldn't return his calls. She wouldn't speak to him. Now I just find, Isobel has to sort out whether she's in some petty kindergarten organisation or running the Liberal Party. And I say to you Chris, for the sake of good government, you're going to have to get your party sorted out, and that might mean spilling a bit of blood to get some new people in and some old people out who aren't still fighting the Hatfield and McCoy argument of the Liberal movement of the 70s.

Pyne: Well we've got seven fantastic new members in this Parliamentary Liberal Party. People like Steven Marshall and John Gardner and Tim Whetstone and Peter Treloar and Dan Van Holst Pelekan and Rachel Sanderson and Jing Lee and we might end up with Rita Borous in the Upper House. I don't know if they've finalised the counting for that. It's not quite finished yet.

Schacht: I think you might be, I mean both major parties I think are only going to get four (seats), because of the vagaries of that preferential system (inaudible).

Bevan: (inaudible)

Schacht: By the way I do want to make one comment that I didn't make on the night of the election for the Liberal candidate Dan....

Pyne: Dan Van Holst Pelekan.

Schacht: Is I think one of the best results for the Liberal Party in the whole election, in that the Liberal Party won it by two hundred votes in 2006 with Graham Gunn and now he got a seven per cent swing and he's got a 57 per cent (margin). In that seat without the sitting member, and we had a pretty reasonable candidate for the Labor Party with Sean Holden.

Pyne: Now the only country seat you hold is basically Lyn Brewer's seat of Giles.

Schacht: And she actually held up very well in Giles.

Pyne: And Labor's problem of course is...(inaudible)...and this is both a curse and also an advantage. Our Liberal vote is very strong in country SA and the Labor vote is basically non-existent. But of course in the Northern Suburbs and a lot of the Western Suburbs and the Southern Suburbs, very strong safe Labor seats....(inaudible). The re-distribution is going to be fascinating because we won 51 point six per cent of the vote; the redistribution commission actually has to create enough marginal Liberal seats for us to be able to win the election.

Schacht: It's impossible to-I mean when they made the change to the constitution to say the electoral commission has got to take account of the swing. It is impossible because what Tony Piccolo did in Light, he increased his vote because....

Pyne: It means there will probably be a new Liberal seat in the Western Suburbs...(inaudible)

Schacht: I think that somewhere a couple of Labor seats are going to be turned into very marginal Liberal seats.

Pyne: Because in Hartley you can come down into Bragg you see.

Schacht: We know all about that you see and we want it to go the other way.

Pyne: Well of course you do, but the constitution requires them to take into account the fact that we got more votes than you.

Bevan: You're listening to the Two Chris's. Chris Pyne Liberal MP for Sturt and Christopher Schacht former Labor Senator. Now in just a moment we need to ask our two Chris's about Malcolm Turnbull. He's announced that he'll be retiring at the next election. But Vincent has called from Unley. Hello Vincent.

Caller 1: Oh good morning David. I enjoy the banter on the program and I think a lot of people enjoy the fun and the interchange between the two Chris's, but only up to a point because with Christopher Pyne's posturing that he doesn't get involved in State Party politics. Is he really surprised that people get really cynical about politicians when he clearly isn't telling the truth and keep avoiding direct questions on the subject?

Bevan: Christopher Pyne?

Pyne: Well Vincent I'll answer the question directly as you like. The reality is I don't get involved in State Parliamentary matters. I'm glad that they have sorted their leadership and deputy leadership today. I stick to my patch of Sturt, I work for the electors of Sturt. I'm also the Shadow Minister for Education and Manager of Opposition Business, which I find very exhilarating. I'm delighted that we returned Liberal members for Norwood and Morialta and held Labor members to account in Torrens, Newland and Hartley; all in my electorate. Look people might-I think the Advertiser today describes the so-called power of Christopher Pyne is something of an urban myth.  I think the point is there is a mythology about it, but it's not borne out by reality.

Bevan: Vincent thank you for your call. Let's got to Campbelltown. Hello Sue.

Caller 2: Good morning gentleman.

Schacht: Good morning Sue. You're in Chris Pyne's electorate too.

Caller 2: Yes, aren't I lucky.

Schacht: You're very lucky.

Pyne: Well I hope you're lucky. I hope I'm lucky to have you in my electorate Sue more importantly.

Schacht: Rick Sarr will be the candidate at the next election so think about giving Chris Sarr the big vote....

Pyne: You can't even get his name right.

Caller 2: I admit to being a Labor voter.

Schacht: I'm sorry, Rick Sarr.

Pyne: What a disaster

Schacht: That's my disaster for the week.

Pyne: You're trying to promote the Labor candidate and you don't even know his name. I'm sorry Sue...

Bevan: That's Chris Sarr standing for "Dignity for Dying". Ok Sue from Campbelltown.

Caller 2: I have a theory I would like to put to Chris Schacht and anyone else who's interested. I have a theory that Jay Weatherill after the election where the Government seemed to be so out of touch was encouraged to stand for deputy knowing full well that he couldn't possibly win; to make them look good. You know, "we're all about renewal" etc etc. And promised for doing so, humiliating himself apparently, a very good portfolio which he got, namely education. What do you think about that?

Schacht: Well anything's possible in politics in theory. My understanding from people I spoke to around that time is that he announced on the Sunday, the day after the election that he was going to stand for the deputy leadership. He did so without discussing with many people, not only with some. Not even some of those within his own faction were not exactly 100 per cent enthusiastic....

Bevan: Pat Conlon wasn't very happy?

Schacht: But I think there's stories that Pat Conlon might not have been happy. But it's obvious whether he stood for the deputy leadership or not, with the defeat of a couple of Labor ministers and a retirement Weatherill was going to be promoted to a senior position. That is no surprise at all and I think that was going to happen irrespective of whether contested...

Bevan: But he knew he was not going to win, but he went ahead and did it. He wasn't humiliated by the result. It went exactly the way he thought it would.

Schacht: He got all the left votes except one left person abstaining from the vote.

Pyne: Who was that?

Bevan: Who was that?

Schacht: Well, you've had him on your radio program. You interviewed Tony Piccolo...

Bevan: Oh, that's right.

Schacht: You interviewed him.

Pyne: Why did he abstain?

Schacht: Well, I didn't hear it but he gave some reason.

Bevan: He referred to issues back some ten years ago.

Schacht: Some issues within the left faction it may have been some years ago.

Bevan: Long memories.

Schacht: He had a long memory. I mean he has every right to be delighted with the great result in the seat. Also, the non-aligned, Mike Rann and John Hill actually aren't in any faction-they voted for the Deputy Leader Kevin Foley.

Bevan: (inaudible)...It was about positioning himself (Jay Weatherill). It's also about sidelining as much as he can Patrick Conlon, but Jay has effectively taken over the leadership of the left faction.

Schacht: There was a comment made by Kris Hannah, who lost his seat in the end, that he saw and he used to be in the left faction before he left the Labor Party. He said the Parliamentary left is no longer the Pat Conlon faction, it is the Jay Weatherill faction. That was his assessment. I don't know whether anyone agrees with that or not, but that may well be closer to the truth than we know.

Bevan: Well I've spoken to a member of the left faction, currently a member of the left faction who thinks that is the case. That this is about Conlon's star fading and Jay's rising within that faction.

Schacht: The biggest issue within the left group is what is their biggest union, the Miscellaneous Workers Union. What's their view about all of this?

Bevan: Well that's Mark Butler. He used to run that union.

Schacht: And Pat Conlon used to be a senior official of that union for a number of years. The leadership of the parliamentary left in the South Australian Parliament will be more to do with what the non-parliamentary left do and....

Bevan: Pat Conlon is now in a marginal seat...

Schacht: Three and a half per cent.

Bevan: Do you think we should watch that space; whether or not Pat Conlon...do you think he will contest the next election?

Pyne: The redistribution of course could make that much worse. Elder could be the seat that's made into a Liberal seat.

Bevan: In which case Pat Conlon would be looking to the Senate or life after politics?

Schacht: Well he went in in 97. He's still a very affective and senior member of the Government in the transport area and infrastructure and has had a lot of success around the place with new roads and everything like that that are all taking place which are a major advantage for the Government. Anyone who's been in the parliament by 2014; that'll be 17 years and you've been a minister for 12. I wouldn't blame them. I wouldn't blame them for thinking "how much longer do I want to be here?" Just like Mick Atkinson who had 20 years said, "I've got to step down. It's time."

Bevan: Now we have to step down in a moment to, but before you leave us, Malcolm Turnbull he's decided to call it quits. Chris Pyne?

Pyne: Yes, I think it's disappointing that Malcolm is leaving the parliament. I think he's something of a heavy hitter in politics and a star of politics. It's a shame. I can understand that he feels that he's been a cabinet minister, he's been leader of the party. It amazes me he's only been there for five and a half years, it's been a pretty incredible trajectory; he's packed a lot in five and a half years and he's a real. He's been a real contributor and he's a bright, intelligent, thoughtful intellectual...

Bevan: A bright and thoughtful intellectual that Tony Abbott did not want.

Pyne: Look, it's difficult for Malcolm to be back on the front bench when he's still proposing to cross the floor on the emissions trading scheme in May. I don't think that anyone could really expect to have a member of the Shadow Cabinet who's also reserving the right to cross the floor. That issue's "done and dusted". But today is a day for congratulating Malcolm on his contribution and thanking him for it. I'm disappointed that he's leaving parliament. I'd have preferred if he'd stayed. That is a matter for him and his family.

Schacht: I think it's a big loss to the Liberal Party. He had an ability to win a section of what you might call the "doctors wives" votes on a whole range of social areas and I think him going weakens the Liberal Party in that area. And though he was mercurial to say the least, and I dealt with him through the republican movement in the nineties, he wasn't always and easy man to deal with. He always had to do it his way or nothing, but no doubt about it he is a loss to the Liberal Party in stepping down.

Bevan: Gentleman, thank you for coming in.

Pyne: Pleasure, thank you for having me.

Schacht: Thank you. Back next week I wonder who the deputy leader will be next week.

Pyne: It won't be you.

Schacht: It won't be me. That's for sure.

Bevan: Boys, take it outside. Christopher Pyne, Liberal MP for Sturt and Christopher Schacht former Labor Senator and former ALP State Secretary.

Ends