Transcript - Morning Agenda - Sky - 25 Feb 2010

SUBJECTS: Australians linked to assassination of Hamas leader; Insulation controversy; Youth Allowance and scholarships reforms; "MyHospital"

Ashleigh GILLON: Well, imagine waking up and seeing your name flashed across television screens in connection with the assassination of a senior Hamas leader. Well that's happened to at least one Australian passport holder, probably three, with Australia just the latest country to be connected to the murder in Dubai last month. Twenty-six people are now suspected of being involved. Three of them were travelling on Australian passports. Others carried British, French and Irish documents. Media reports in Tel-Aviv suggest the Australian names used on the passports do belong to real people. Although Israel is denying it is behind the assassination the foreign Minister has today called an urgent meeting this morning with the Israeli Ambassador to explain. Joining me here in the studio this morning, the Leader of the House and the Infrastructure Minister, Mr Anthony Albanese, and also the Manager of Opposition Business and Shadow Education Minister, Chris Pyne, good morning to you. On this development this morning, Minister, obviously this is very concerning for the Government. Do you expect that the Israeli Ambassador will have any information which he can offer to the Foreign Minister this morning?

Anthony ALBANESE: Well it's appropriate that we investigate this thoroughly and we know that Australia has one of the most safe and secure, efficient passport systems in the world. We take this very seriously indeed and I understand that the security agencies were working overnight on this issue. The Foreign Minister will be making a statement later this morning. But clearly we need to get to what the facts are on this matter and the Australian public are then entitled to know what those facts are.

GILLON: You can only imagine how it would feel, though, to have your name connected to these things you had nothing to do with it. At least one man who lives in Tel-Aviv with an Australian passport said today that he's never been to Dubai. He does travel a lot and comes back to Australia a lot. Is this something, Chris Pyne, that is dangerous to these people whose names are being used and what do you think the Government should be doing about it?

Christopher PYNE: I think the Government needs to get in contact with these three Australians to start with, and actually support, to offer them some help to see what those three want the Australian Government to do. I note what Anthony Albanese points out is the correct process. The Foreign Minister does need to do a proper investigation and so forth. But there's a human dimension to this story and that is the three Australians that we are talking about. The Government needs to get in contact with them, offer them help and see what we can do to obviously alleviate their distress. As you point out, it would be a terrible blow to discover that you were linked to this story and the Government needs to do more than just have an investigation here in Australia and in Israel and Dubai. They also need to have some compassion for the three Australians involved.

GILLON: Minister, what do you think the fallout could be if Israel, if there is evidence that they have been involved in this assassination? The diplomatic relationship, of course, would be under threat, wouldn't it? Do we have any intelligence sharing understandings with Israel? Is that something that's at risk?

ALBANESE: Well, the...what is important at a time like this is that Government Ministers don't speculate. What's important is that we find out what the facts are. It's important that we take all appropriate action and certainly our foreign affairs agencies and our security agencies. This isn't a political issue. They were good under the former Government and they are good under this Government in terms of acting responsibly and acting certainly in the interests of both our nation...the national interest...but also in the interests of individual Australians as well, as Christopher has suggested. The Australian agencies are, I think, up to anywhere in the world in terms of the world's best. Certainly it's something we can all be proud of. What's important is that we find and ascertain what the facts are and then make decisions on that basis.

GILLON: Let's move to a story where we do have some more facts and that of the insulation debacle. It's turning out to be a very expensive problem for the Government, $60million being spent checking on any dodgy insulation work. Yesterday we learned that the Government will spend $41million to help workers find new jobs. Is that enough to get these workers through these hard times that, I assume, are ahead of them?

ALBANESE: Well what we've said is that we'll look after those workers. What we have here is a program where clearly there have been issues and the Government has acted on the basis of those issues both in terms of the houses and in terms of housing inspection, but also in terms of the individuals and companies affected. That's important that that occur as that will be and has been concerns about individual workers being displaced so this is an important program as part of the Government's economic stimulus plan and certainly we'll be continuing to work with both individuals and companies to ensure that we get through this transition period before the reformed programme begins.

GILLLON: Christopher Pyne, has the Opposition decided if it will support the revised scheme the Government's come up with? I mean, obviously that scheme will help a number of these installers stay in work, or do you think this is something that can't be done safely and the Government should give up on altogether?

PYNE: Well, Ashleigh, this is a multi-layered shambles, the home insulation scandal and we've got the problem with the workers who are going to lose their jobs through no fault of their own because the Government didn't put in place a scheme that was ever gong to work successfully. That's not just affecting workers who've just come into the scheme in the last few months, to work for supposedly dodgy installers. There are thousands of workers who are losing their jobs who worked for insulators who have been installing insulation for, in some cases, decades. So because of the Minister's mishandling and maladministration of this programme, thousands of people are losing their jobs through no fault of their own. Not just recent entrants but going back many, many years. $40million might help to retrain some of those people but a lot of them won't want to be retrained. They had perfectly good jobs, the insulation industry was a perfectly good industry. It was working quite successfully and the Government came in and Mr Garrett came in and completely messed it up! Then, of course, there are the businesses who have been ruined because of the Government suddenly scrapping the scheme with nothing to put in its place.

GILLON: It is putting a replacement scheme in place...

PYNE: ...in June. If anybody who understands businesses knows that you can't just say "there'll be no scheme from February til June and somehow you guys are going to have to stay in business from February to June"  Now, what on earth is the Government doing? How can they be trusted to be the people to find the solution to this debacle when they created the debacle in the first place? They can't even run a free insulation scheme. How can they be expected to run a Government?

GILLON: Minister, there's a lot of points for you to respond to there. Firstly on that gap between when the new scheme comes in and the one that's just ended. How is that meant to help installation?

ALBANESE: That's why we've set up transitional arrangements to both companies and to individual workers. But what we have here is...one, they opposed the scheme from the beginning. They opposed the insulation plan and they said that no new jobs would be created through it. That it was an unnecessary waste of money. In spite of that, we know that a million households have received insulation through the scheme. Jobs were created...

PYNE: ...most are getting a bit worried about the insulation...

ALBANESE: ...and, indeed, there were benefits in terms of energy efficiency and part of the action on climate change as a result on that. They were opposed to that and they said no new jobs would be created out of that and now they cry crocodile tears and say "these jobs have been lost", jobs that they said wouldn't be there...jobs that they said wouldn't be there in the first place and then they call for the scheme to be stopped when we put a pause on the scheme until such a time as we can then begin the reform scheme, the revised scheme in June or before. They then they can't give a commitment that they support that. You can't have it both ways. The only thing we know about this Opposition is that they oppose everything as a matter of principal.

GILLON: You wouldn't want this replacement scheme to be rushed though, would you Chris Pyne, considering the experiences we've just seen?

PYNE: Ashleigh, what we'd like to have seen is that when the Minister was being given warnings going back to march last year and throughout the year not just from the Opposition but from the Departments, the Trade Unions, the ETU, the independent industry itself. From Members of parliament, from many others...when there were four deaths in this, because of this programme and at least ninety-three house fires, that the Government would at some stage throughout that process decided that there needed to be a massive change in direction instead of just ploughing on and then calling it dead on one date. Now he talks about it, Anthony Albanese talks about the stimulus plan, the stimulus plan didn't create these 30 000 jobs that are about to be lost in the insulation industry...a lot of these jobs have been in the industry for decades. There wasn't no insulation scheme before the Government's scheme. The Government's scheme has rapidly exploded the industry and someone needs to be responsible. It expanded so quickly it couldn't cope and somebody has to be responsible for that.

GILLON: Minister, why does Peter Garrett still have his job? This scheme has been a complete debacle. You'd acknowledge that.

ALBANESE: First, Peter Garrett is a good Minister. Peter Garrett sought advice...

GILLON: ...but he's overseen a scheme that's been a debacle...

ALBANESE: ...and acted on that advice. At each step changes were made. There have been mistakes in the scheme, the appropriate thing to do is to say "yes that's wrecked, how can we fix it?". That is what the Government is doing. Peter Garrett...Peter Garrett is a good Minister I know that they can't stand. The Opposition can't stand the fact that this outstanding Australian has chosen to go into politics to make a difference...

PYNE: ...don't hide behind the fact everyone likes Peter Garrett...

ALBANESE: ...he is making a difference, he is passionate about the environment and he will continue to be the environment Minister because he enjoys the Government's confidence.

GILLON: Yesterday there was a protest outside of Parliament House. Insulation workers gathered out there, Kevin Rudd went down and spoke with them and so did the Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott. Where was Peter Garrett?

ALBANESE: Look, I don't know where Peter Garrett was during that event but it's appropriate that the Prime Minister of this country was prepared to go out there and talk with people about the issues. I didn't know the Prime Minister was going out there, I saw it on last night's news and what I saw was a Prime Minister concerned about everyday Australians' concerns and prepared to sit down and talk through those issues with them. I think that's a good thing!

GILLON: Is that what you saw yesterday and looking at the news last night?

PYNE: No, I think that the truth is that Anthony Albanese's trying to hide behind the fact everyone likes Peter Garrett. Nobody dislikes Peter Garrett, he's a lovely bloke but he's not doing a good job. And I think probably what's really happened is why Peter Garrett's kept his job, as you asked Anthony Albanese, is because he's the patsy for Kevin Rudd, for Wayne Swan and Lindsay Tanner and for Julia Gillard, who sat down and said "shovel this money out the door. Get it out as quickly as you can". They don't want to see him sacked or resign because the truth is probably they are really responsible for the debacle and not Peter Garrett.

GILLON: Let's talk about the Government's Youth Allowance Bill. Chris Pyne, I know this is something you've been on the attack over for many weeks and months. It seems like there's a stalemate again. Minister, why won't the Government go with the Opposition's idea and split the Youth Allowance Bill and the Scholarship Bill to enable what, at least 150 000 scholarships to be paid?

ALBANESE: A little fact here, Ashleigh, something that the Opposition doesn't seem to understand. You can't split the Bill in the Senate. It can't be done, it's unconstitutional and you can't do it!

PYNE: The Senate can request the House of Representatives to do it.

ALBANESE: No, the Senate cannot do that. That's something the Greens don't understand and something the Opposition don't but what we know is that our legislation will provide for increased support for more students. That rural participation in universities fell during the last five years of the Howard Government and thirty-nine Vice-Chancellors have written to Tony Abbott and to Christopher asking them to pass this legislation. They should do it. It's the Vice-Chancellors, it's students and it's their parents who have the interests of these students at heart. Not the Opposition, which is simply playing politics with people's lives.

GILLON: Why are you ignoring that advice from the Vice-Chancellors? Do you think you know better than them?

PYNE: Well, number one, Ashleigh, the Senate, of course can't appropriate money. Everyone knows that. But it can request the House of Representatives to make an appropriation in the same way the Senate can ask the House of Representatives to split the Bill. So there is no constitutional impediment whatsoever to the Senate passing a motion to the House of Representatives to split the Bill and that is of course the mechanism that we would be adopting when this comes into the Senate, which I don't think will be today because I don't think they have room for it on their timetable. So that's number one, so Anthony's clever little note didn't actually hit the middle target. Number two, the Coalition supports the Scholarships reforms. Absolutely, we do. And we said that right from May last year. And we warned the Government throughout last year that keeping the scholarships handcuffed to the Youth Allowance reforms would see them both defeated and that's what happened. That will happen again unless the Government splits the Bill so that we can pass the Scholarships and then deal with the Youth Allowance reforms. Our problem with the Youth Allowance reforms is that they will disadvantage rural and regional students just for one simple reason, they expect country people to find a thirty-hour-a-week job for eighteen months in two years in order to qualify for the independent rate of Youth Allowance. Anybody with any sense knows that those jobs aren't in rural and regional Australia and we want to put back that thirty hours back to fifteen hours as it used to be so that rural and regional kids get the same chance to go to university as city kids. I can't see why the Minister is being so intransient about it and I think a lot of people are feeling the same way. In terms of the Vice Chancellors, look, the Vice-Chancellors usually support the Government of the day. They want students to get resources and they're not always right and in fact they're quite often wrong. The Isolated Children's Parents Association has a completely different view. They represent country people. The Country Education Foundation has a different view, they represent country people. Good luck to the Vice-Chancellors but they don't determine Coalition policy.

GILLON: I know the Government has made some changes to try and help rural and regional students but, as Chris Pyne says, there's still a lot of fears that that isn't good enough. That more needs to be done.

ALBANESE: Well I...the bottom line here is that more students will be eligible for scholarships and they'll be eligible for higher scholarships than exist at the moment. This is good legislation, it should be carried...

PYNE: ...we want to pass the scholarships...

ALBANESE: ...it should be carried and that will be carried...what they're doing is refusing to even bring it on in the Senate. Why is it being delayed and not being debated and voted upon today?

PYNE: That's nothing to do with me, they're still doing health insurance!

ALBANESE: The Senate, that you control is "still doing health insurance"? What we're seeing here...

GILLON: ...Minister, that doesn't answer the question about what this has to do with rural and regional students.

ALBANESE: Well, then. Rural and regional students will be better off under this scheme. The fact is that there'll be more scholarships and higher scholarships under this scheme. We think...we think this is good legislation and we think the Opposition is playing politics with this, with the changes that they want will result with a blowout to the Budget of $1 billion. And what they've got to answer to people is are they just playing little political games or are they come in to the next election with the changes they want now, which will result in a $1 billion commitment at the next election? Are they committed to that because we haven't heard from them. They want us to do it but they won't even commit to it themselves.

PYNE: Well there's two quick things. One is that Anthony doesn't understand the scheme. He says that there will be more Commonwealth scholarships and that they will be higher but of course if you don't qualify for the Youth Allowance you don't actually get the scholarships. So the problem for rural and regional kids is that they don't get the Youth Allowance and scholarships are pretty meaningless to them. So he actually doesn't understand the scheme he's defending today. Number two, we have proposed a $696 million savings measure. The idea that the Opposition is proposing a Budget blowout is a basic lie but the Minister simply repeats over and over and over again the same thing in the hope that people will believe it. They actually voted against our savings measures last year. We proposed savings measures and we will again when we...we moved for them last year. In the House of Representatives and in the Senate.

ALBANESE: You have legislation, do you?

PYNE: You check the Hansard, my friend. You don't even know what's going on.

GILLON: We're going around in circles here but just on education I want to ask you, Minister, about a story today in News Limited saying that the Government is looking at setting up a website similar to the MySchool website but for public hospitals and apparently, according to this story in News Limited, it will allow patients to examine hospital infections, mortality rates, medication, errors in elective surgery, waiting times, is that something the Government's considering?

ALBANESE: Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers, Ashleigh, it's news to me. First I've heard of it as there's been no discussions at any meetings I've been at about that. What we know is that the MySchool website has worked extremely well, effectively. Parents have logged on in numbers that have surpassed any expectation which would have been there. It's an important reform. It's about transparency in education. We're backing it up with $2 billion for the most disadvantaged schools. Certainly, a couple of schools in my electorate in the last fortnight have been notified of extra funding, extra resources, so this has been an extremely successful policy introduced by Julia Gillard. It's a pity that the Opposition couldn't even support this.

GILLON: Chris Pyne, would it be a good idea to have that sort of website so patients could see their hospitals and how they were doing?

PYNE: Look, it doesn't surprise me that Anthony Albanese is back peddling away from another website. The Government's solution to every problem is... well you say it but you don't do anything about it. We had GroceryWatch and that went...the grocery website website was going to reduce prices of groceries. The FuelWatch website was going to reduce the price of fuel. Now we have the MySchool website which doesn't do anything about principal autonomy. It's certainly not a bad idea but it's not actually going to change the world. And now we're going to have MyHospital?

ALBANESE: Are you for it or against it?

PYNE: What we need is real changes to hospitals that actually improve service delivery to patients. The idea that you can have a website there to fix everything is like something out of Yes, Prime Minister. It's so embarrassing. It's so bad that Anthony Albanese's backing away from it already. This Government's out of control. I support the MySchool website, if it gives principals autonomy, we'd do more than this Government has done.

(ends)