Transcript - Meet The Press - 28 March 2010

PAUL BONGIORNO: Christopher Pyne. Good morning, Mr Pyne.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning, Paul. How are you?

BONGIORNO: Not too bad. Just going to those reports on the asylum seekers being moved around the country, the government says they will eventually be sent home because they have failed the refugee test. Isn't this simply good management?

PYNE: Look, it's not good management to have softened border-protection laws to the point where there have now been 4,500 arrivals, almost 100 boats - I think it's now 98 boats have arrived since August 2008. The Government said that they would not have any onshore processing, that they would continue the offshore-processing policies of the previous government. That has not happened. They said that asylum seekers would not be brought to Australia. Darwin has been readied to bring asylum seekers to Australia and now we're seeing overnight that 90 or 89 people have been brought to Villawood Detention Centre in Sydney. So what this indicates is a further weakening of the Government's border-protection policies. Even the UN says that Australia is giving the green light to people smugglers and is encouraging, through its policies, people trying to get to Australia.

BONGIORNO: You say it is a failure of border protection policies - but we're, in fact, intercepting these people - that's why they are in detention. We have hardly lost control from that point of view, have we?

PYNE: But the fact is, they're trying to get to Australia. Why are they trying to get to Australia in the first place? Between 2002 and 2007, hardly any asylum seekers came to Australia because of the Howard Government's real border-protection policies. Since 2008, there have been 4,500 arrivals - 98 boats - because of the softening of the border-protection policies. So, sure, they are being intercepted - thank goodness! I mean, imagine what a failed policy it would be if they were actually arriving on the mainland in Australia? But the point is, the green light has been put out there and they are responding to it.

BONGIORNO: Do you agree with the sentiment that these people's courage should be admired? It's the triumph of hope over fear.

PYNE: Look, Paul, everybody feels for genuine refugees who need to leave their country. But one of the determining factors of whether you are a refugee, according to the United Nations, is that you apply for asylum in the first country you come to after you leave the country in which you are being persecuted. Most of the people who are coming to Australia on these boats are actually flying to Malaysia or Indonesia before they catch a boat to Australia. So we're not actually comparing apples with apples when we make those kinds of statements.

BONGIORNO: Moving onto other issues - on Wednesday, Liberal powerbroker Nick Minchin dropped a bombshell. He announced he was quitting Shadow Cabinet immediately and wouldn't contest the next election. That cleared the way for Tony Abbott to shunt the controversial Barnaby Joyce out of Finance.

ABBOTT: What this is a better fit for Barnaby as we hone our political attack going into the election.

BONGIORNO: Well, Mr Pyne is a South Australian Liberal MP. Is water a better fit for the National Party's Senate leader?

PYNE: Well, our policy on water is very clear and that is that we believe the States have failed to govern the Murray-Darling basin in the interests of the almost 2 million people that lives in the Murray-Darling basin and at least half of whom rely on it for their livelihood. For 110 years, the States have been managing what is essentially a national river system. Now, we have said to them that we want them to actually do the job, to spend the money on infrastructure. Let us not forget there was $5.8 million put on the table by the Howard Government for infrastructure. They have spent 10% of that amount of money. We say, ""Spend that money - we will help you to do it."" We want them to refer their powers to us in the middle of next year and then we will manage the basin for all of the people who live in it - from Queensland through to Adelaide.

BONGIORNO: Well, that's good Liberal policy! That's good Liberal policy - Barnaby Joyce does not want a single management of the basin and he doesn't agree that the problem is over-allocation upstream, as you and Mr Abbott say, but rather, the drought.

PYNE: Look, there's a whole lot of reasons why the Murray-Darling basin has been badly managed. One of those is the veto power that the States have managed to keep under the Rudd government.

BONGIORNO: Does Senator Joyce have to come into line with you and Tony Abbott on this or will he have to be shunted out of his job as well?

PYNE: Well, the absolute last resort, with respect to our policy, is that if the States will not play ball, if they won't spend the money on infrastructure...  

BONGIORNO: And if Barnaby Joyce does not agree with you?

PYNE: Well, if they won't manage the Murray-Darling basin for the good of all the people in it, then we'll hold a referendum as a last resort. And I'm absolutely confident, having spoken to Barnaby about all these matters, that he agrees that the Murray-Darling basin must be managed for everybody who's in it and that a referendum is a last resort.  

BONGIORNO: One last question in this segment - do you believe that climate change is the single biggest threat to Adelaide's water security in the next 30 years?  

PYNE: Look, I think the biggest single threat to Adelaide's water supply and the enormous economic aspect that is the Murray-Darling basin is bad management. I don't believe that climate change is the biggest danger to it - it is the management of it.

BONGIORNO: A factor?

PYNE: Well, droughts are a factor, and of course that plays a role, but the most important thing is bad management of the Murray-Darling basin by the States.

BONGIORNO: Time for a break. When we return with the panel, deconstructing Julia Gillard's memorial halls. And the lead balloon of the week went to Tony Abbott's debate jokes. The worm thought he was as funny as a dentist's needle.  

ABBOTT: (Tuesday) So it's interesting that the PM has had some medical experience as an anaesthetist in the House of Representatives.  (LAUGHTER)

ABBOTT: But, but, but, look...

BONGIORNO: You're on Meet The Press with senior Liberal Christopher Pyne. And welcome to the panel, Eleanor Hall from ABC Radio's 'The World Today' and Mark Kenny, 'The Advertiser'. Good morning, Eleanor and Mark.

BOTH: Good morning, Paul.

BONGIORNO: Julia Gillard says her schools' stimulus has played a major role in saving 200,000 jobs and staving off recession. The Opposition attacks it as a wasteful personal indulgence.

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER JULIA GILLARD: 9,500 schools, 24,000 projects. The Opposition in Parliament has raised less than 30 individual school examples, and when we've investigated, many of them have proven not to be right.

BONGIORNO: At least one Liberal MP agrees.

LIBERAL MP ANDREW LAMING: (Friday) My projects in the electorate don't have any of the problems that have been described by others of waste or mismanagement as far as I know. And I've also talked to all of the principals and they're delighted with them in my electorate.

ELEANOR HALL: So, Mr Pyne, it's not just the minister - even your own MPs are finding that this policy is popular in their electorates. So where exactly does the Opposition stand on this? Are you proposing to close the program down?

PYNE: No, Eleanor, we've never proposed to close the program down. We've said all along what we believe in is that we should be getting value for taxpayers' money. It's a $16.5 billion project. If I had $16.5 billion, I wouldn't have spent it all on school halls to memorialise the minister. I would spend it on teacher quality and literacy and numeracy and other things that are important to the education of our children.

HALL: So you would pull some of the funding from this program, would you?

PYNE: No, no - it is too late now, the money has been allocated and we have said that we will not stop round three of the program. What we have said, though, is that we believe that we should try and get taxpayers value for their money. Julia Gillard falls back on this, I think, rather embarrassing idea that these are isolated examples. If you speak to most mums and dads and principals and teachers, they will all say, ""Sure, we are glad there is money being spent in our schools, we like the fact that we've got a new library or a new resource centre or a new hall, but, gee, it could have been spent so much more carefully. There could have been so much more value for money."" Now, they will not say no to infrastructure. This is where Julia Gillard doesn't understand the human nature of parents and teachers. But they certainly do understand that they are not getting value for money. Just take the Hastings Public School, which in June last year was getting a covered outdoor learning centre for $400,000. It is now apparently worth $954,000 in six months.

MARK KENNY: But, Mr Pyne, that actual problem was picked up in that project before it even started. So doesn't that just show the system's actually working?

PYNE: Not by the government.

KENNY: Well, by the State Government.

PYNE: Not by the government, Mark. No, by the Opposition. No, the Opposition actually raised...

KENNY: The State government says it had an audit process underway and that it picked up these problems.

PYNE: Not in June last year. The State Government scrapped it last Thursday. The Opposition raised it last June.

KENNY: Before it commenced.

PYNE: Between June and March, the NSW State Government and Julia Gillard defended the Hastings Public School. It took nine months of Ray Hadley, of me, of 'The Australian', of other journalists, raising this outrage before the State Government finally acted.

KENNY: But, look, there are many examples that you can point to - minor examples, larger examples of where this spending has not been precise in the way that it might be in a more orderly program. This was a stimulus program. It's proved very popular. Aren't you trying to walk both sides of the street? You're saying you want to highlight these examples and you're opposed to the program, but you don't intend to change it, even though half of that money will not have been spent by the time the election occurs.

PYNE: The Opposition's job, Mark, is to try and make sure the government is held to account. Now, the Labor Party doesn't understand the rules of supply and demand. They do not understand that you cannot pump $16.5 billion in demand out into the economy for school halls, without actually doing anything about supply. They don't understand that has massively inflated the cost of school halls by as much as 30% and therefore taxpayers are not getting value for money. The opposition would not be doing its job if we weren't highlighting how much waste and mismanagement and State-skimming and gouging by private enterprise, and substitutions by State Governments was going on. Julia Gillard can turn a blind eye to this and claim that it is all made up. But why doesn't she make the States expose their BER costings in the same way she has made teachers and schools expose their results on the My School website? If it is good for the goose, it is good for the gander. Julia Gillard, on the My School website, has teachers' results, schools' results for everyone to see. But she said she will not make the State Governments expose their costings for their BER projects. Only NSW is doing it which is why NSW is the one in the media. She should make all the States do it. What's good for the goose, it is good for the gander - otherwise she's being a hypocrite.

BONGIORNO: Well, Mr Pyne, a viewer, Ray from Forestville in Sydney, says, ""The Killarney Heights Public School has a brand new hall built under the BER funding and it's in Tony Abbott's electorate and it'll be opened next term. I would be upset,"" he says, ""as a parent, if he doesn't bother turning up."" The problem is if he turns up, won't he look like a hypocrite?

PYNE: Look, whether Tony Abbott turns up or not is really a matter for him - it will depend on his diary. In my electorate, for example, my constituents are paying just as much of the debt and deficit back as anybody else's constituents. They are paying just as much of the taxes. Therefore, they're entitled to their fair share of government stimulus spending, because they're paying back the debt just like anybody else is.

BONGIORNO: There were reports during the week that Tony Abbott's 'action-man' image is worrying some of your colleagues. The surfing, running, bike-riding 52-year-old Mr Abbott in his element today competing in a 14 hour triathlon at Port Macquarie.

FEDERAL TREASURER WAYNE SWAN: When you're in Opposition, you've got to work from dawn till dusk. I frankly can't understand how he finds the time to engage in all of those pursuits. I personally would love to go surfing more often, but I can't, because I've got a very important job to do.

KENNY: Mr Pyne, Tony Abbott says that he has trained about 10 hours a week for this massive endurance test. Experts say that maybe he needs to have done something like twice that - 20 hours a week. Are you worried about your 52-year-old leader?

PYNE: (LAUGHS) Mark, I'm not in the least bit worried about my leader. He is one of the fittest, most physically able people - especially plus-50 year old - that I know. I find the Labor Party's criticisms of him absolutely startling. I don't remember them making these criticisms when Wayne Goss and John Bannon were running marathons when they were Opposition Leader and when they were Premier. I don't remember Wayne Swan and Kevin Rudd criticising Wayne Goss when they worked for him, for running in marathons. This is just because the Labor Party has no answer to Tony Abbott's physical fitness. So they are trying to turn his positive into a negative. There are two other points to make - we spend millions of dollars as federal taxpayers every year encouraging people into healthy lifestyles. We have an Opposition Leader who is leading by example and yet the Government is trying to make that into a negative. I would rather we had an Opposition Leader who lead by example than spend millions of taxpayers' dollars trying to get people up off their butts and out exercising. And the third thing is, if they are saying that Tony Abbott shouldn't be doing this, what are they saying to the other 1,500 people who are in the triathlon? Or people who play sport? I mean, there is a particular snobbery about them saying that people should not be able to play sport or be triathlon athletes or other people, as well as have serious jobs. Are they saying many people that don't have serious jobs should be able to play sport or be in triathlons?

KENNY: Well, this is a pretty extreme sport, isn't it?

PYNE: Well, it's not an extreme sport.

KENNY: 180km cycle ride, a marathon, a 3.5km swim - sounds pretty extreme to me. 14 hours!

BONGIORNO: OK, we're obviously going to have a very big argument...

PYNE: It sounds extreme to you and I, Mark, because neither of us are very fit.

BONGIORNO: (LAUGHS) We'll all go for a jog after the show.

PYNE: Tony Abbott is leading by example.

BONGIORNO: Thank you very much for being with us... (LAUGHS) We just have to go. Thank you for being with us, Christopher Pyne.

PYNE: You'd better be careful, Paul, if you go for a jog.

BONGIORNO: Thank you.