Transcript - ABC Radio - Life Matters 20 July 09

SUBJECTS: Building the Education Revolution; IPA paper on school vouchers

Aedy:

...Minister for Education, who's led the charge of the criticism of the project. He's calling for an enquiry by the auditor-general. (unclear) into the program, welcome to life matters.

Pyne:

Good morning Richard.

Aedy:

Now, you've been very critical of the BER. Can you explain some of the problems that you've seem with it?

Pyne:

Essentially, the Opposition is not critical of the need or the desire to see our students have the best infrastructure we can have as possible. We're very critical of waste and mismanagement with taxpayer's money and what we're seeing with the Building the Education Revolution. What the school stimulus debacle, as some people have dubbed it, is skimming by State Governments that means more money to the Federal Government have spent, the States have withdrawn their spending they had planned in schools...

Aedy:

Hang on, who's doing that? Because for me it's easy to say that but which states are actually doing that? How can you say that they are?

Pyne:

Well South Australia for example has reduced its spending in its Budget announced about six weeks ago by 12% on school infrastructure. Now, of course, in the years up to this year that spending on school infrastructure has routinely increased. But this year, coincidentally, with the Building the Education Revolution, it's been cut by 12%. We have examples in Victoria where promises by the State Victorian Government before the last election for spending of up to $2mil and even beyond in some schools has been whipped off the table and the principals are being told directly "well now the money's coming from the BER you can wait until that money is on the table". So there are examples right across the country of State skimming. We've also got the other problem which is that businesses who have tendered for contracts to build school gyms and school walls and libraries and resource centres etc. are gong back to the department saying "we don't have the workers of the materials so it will have to wait until next year . Let's do what we can now, then we'll digest the rest later on". And they're being told by bureaucrats that "we have to get this money out immediately". The business people are saying "well it's going to cost another 30% for us to do that and the bureaucrats are saying "good. It doesn't matter, just get the money out there as we want to spend" so businesses either deliberately or not through their own fault are actually profiteering out of it. The other problem that we've got is schools that have had plans on the table for probably years in some cases. Maybe one of the local governing council...parents of architect or engineer or even a builder, and they've planned to develop things in their schools and are being told "forget those plans. We're not interested in what you've got or put down for the last few years. You will have a school hall, you will have a gymnasium or you will have a library or you will have a resource centre." And schools are saying "but actually we don't need those things" and they're being told that's the quickest way to spend the money, to get what you'd planned and you're going to have what they're being told to have.

Aedy:

Well which schools ... Can you name the schools where you know that this is the case?

Pyne:

Well the other difficulty of it of course is there is basically a gag on Principals and Governing Councils so built into the contracts are conditions that Principals and Governing Councils council talk about their crit of the BER - they put their money at risk so only very few courageous Principals and Governing Councils have been prepared to go on the record. Many of them have been responding to our website www.educationforaustralia.com.au anonymously and that's where a lot of these stories are coming from.

Aedy:

Are they calling you as well?

Pyne:

Oh yes. We're getting emails, phone calls, letters...my colleges across the country are being inundated by Principals and Governing Council Chairs. Some of them have said we can use their names and their schools. Others have said "look, here's an example, but if you use our name or our school we could lose the money so please don't".

Aedy:

One thing that I have heard, and this seems unlikely, is that schools that are going to be closed or even knocked down are still supposed to be getting this money.

Pyne:

There are some schools that have received national pride money, which is $200 thousand per school. Until the Opposition began raising this issue, were spending the money on things like structures in the schools and these were schools that were going to be knocked down at the end of the year. That happened particularly in South Australia up in QLD and once that hit the newspapers, the Govt asked the schools to spend it on materials that they could take to the new school. But that hasn't stopped money being spent on toilet blocks, or on running tracks...it's very hard to move a running track, Richard...because on the other hand I don't think the students should have to put up with toilet blocks that are unsanitary but that's really the State Government's responsibility and why is it now, that the Federal Government is spending its money on toilet blocks in schools that should never have got into that state? And in schools that are going to be knocked over? The other ridiculous example Richard, and I'm sorry to interrupt you, is where if all a school wanted to do was air conditioning in existing buildings, they're not allowed to do that. They're not allowed to put air conditioning in existing buildings. But they're allowed to put air conditioning in new buildings. So we have the farcical situation where some schools are knocking down existing - perfectly adequate - buildings in order to build new ones with air conditioning because that's all they wanted was air conditioning.

Aedy:

That is...ridiculous...now all I've noticed today... My guest is Christopher Pyne who is the Opposition Spokesperson for Education. We are talking about the Building the Education Revolution - this is the capital works project for schools across the country...$15 billion dollars more of less and Christopher Pyne has identified some problems with it. Your issue, it seems to be at the nub of it, is not about spending the money, it is essentially the lack of autonomy and agency that schools have here. But, some of the very wealthy Independent Schools, which don't technically need the money still get it, can spend it on whatever they like and they don't have to deal with any red tape.

Pyne:

Well every school is getting up to $3 million depending on the number of their students, so wether you are an elite independent school or even an elite Government school, you're getting the resources. Now the Government says that they think every school should get the same which is a quantum leap from their previous policies they've had over the last 50 years, but putting that to one side... The real problem with this is that the Independent sector have managed to negotiate arrangements with the Governments where they are essentially building what they wanted to build. The irony is in the public school system is that the State Governments are simply telling the Principals what they will have and the Principals are up in arms saying "well our friends down the road, at St Mary's or Our Lady Under the Sea or whatever ... they are spending the money on what they want to spend it on to do with infrastructure and we're being told that we have to have another school resource centre which happens to be, coincidentally, exactly the same as our library". So they're quite rightly upset, the school Principals and there's no autonomy, there's no independence and they're being forced to have things which, in many instances, they don't want. We have ... a terrible example in Queensland where there's a school that's been using the Town Hall next door to the school for 100 years and they've got 4 classrooms and they want to have eight classrooms. They were told by the Queensland Government that they had to have a school hall and they said "we use the Town Hall next door". And the State Government says "forget that, the fastest thing we can give you is a school hall and you'll have one". Now this is just crazy! Why don't they just take pause with the program, let the Auditor-General have a good look at it, put some parameters down force the State Governments to be sensible about how they spend their money so the taxpayers get value for money that they're not getting now.

Aedy:

Just stay with us Christopher Pyne. I'll come back to this issue with the Auditor-General a bit later. I want to bring in Leonie Trimper, who's President of the Primary Principals Association. Good morning Leonie...

Trimper:

Good morning...

(recording interrupted)

Trimper:

...now I must say would calm things down considerably is that now most of the State systems have now put processes into place to address any grievances that Principals have. So one state employs retired Principals to solve any concerns. One has set up a Ministerial Committee with all stakeholders to meet and address complaints - and I'm talking unions, contractors, parents, Principals everybody. In New South Wales, the managing contractors have to visit all the school Principals to make sure they are all satisfied and they're getting value for money.

Aedy:

But one of Christopher Pyne's points was that Principals have essentially had to sign a gag order. So if they're not happy, they can't say anything publicly about that. Are you hearing that?

Trimper:

No, I'm not aware of a gag order. I'm certainly aware in Victoria that there was a gag order around the computers but I really am not - no-one has talked to me - that there has been a gag order on this particular project and I'd be really interested in seeing, what's been written if that's the case because I know state associations have been very vocal and will continue to be very vocal because as I said this is one the opportunity and we want to make sure we get it right.

Aedy:

Well I'm going to go back to Christopher in a moment but the thing he wants if for the Auditor-General to have an enquiry into the BER. Do you support that idea?

Trimper:

Well I must say I did ask the Principals around the nation wether they thought an audit was needed and they were adamant that it wasn't needed. They said the States were now responding to the issues, that communication processes were improving - I know New South Wales, for example, is putting out a newsletter this week that will be assuring schools they'll be getting 96% of the cost of the project and I think that other states are communicating a lot more as I said. There's now structures in place. New South Wales has also got 200 schools self-managing so I think that states are reviewing things as they go along. If there are two areas that I would like to make sure that keep improving - one is transparency. Look, we do have a mixed feeling about value for money. That is one area that we're not sure is going to go away. As one Principal said, there will always be members of a small community that will tell Principals that they can do the same job 20 cents cheaper. But there is a problem about value for money this Principal said that Principals now have to get a grip with reality with things happening so quickly. So there are still issues, but we don't feel like a full audit from the Auditor-General is necessary, no.

Aedy:

Thanks Leonie. Christopher Pyne, hearing what Leonie's had to say, to you think that you're only hearing some of the more extreme problems?

Pyne:

I think that one of the key things that Leonie said right at the end was that the rush ... for Principals to get a grip on reality when something like this was happening so quickly. The question I ask is "why is it happening? Why does it need to happen so quickly? Why are they rushing the job?". Apparently there are green shoots appearing in the economy - Mr Rudd and Mr Swan have said that we're not in recession and declared victory over the economic crisis. Why don't we slow it down and do it properly? It's a once-in-a-generation opportunity.

Aedy:

Well you've requested the Auditor-General to look at this. What areas in particular would you want to focus on?

Pyne:

What I'd like the Auditor-General to do is ensure that there are practises in place to make sure that there is not State skimming, that there isn't profiteering by business, that the money is properly targeted where it's needed, that the plans are appropriate for the school communities and that the administration and management of the projects is not being mis-managed. We have examples in Queensland where contractors are being given up to or a dozen ten schools maximum and are being paid $500 000 for 6 months work to manage the projects in those schools. Now Leonie might say that's because they have to do it in a great hurry, well I come back again to "why do we have to hurry the projects?".

Aedy:

Would you like to see spending stopped while the Auditor-General looked at it or...?

Pyne:

Well I think the Auditor-General is making initial enquiries now with the Department of Education on if he thinks it is necessary, I assume that when he makes that decision he'll also recommend to the Government that the spending either stop or be put in limbo until he makes the decision. But I think it's more likely that the projects will continue, but the Auditor-General will put in place much better processes to ensure that taxpayers get value for money. It's a once-in-a-generation opportunity, Richard, to get it right and rushing it is the worst thing we could do. We don't want to, in 30 years time, people to be sitting around saying "why on earth did we have (unclear) school hall which has nothing to do with the rest of the school and we don't use very often?".

Aedy:

Alright, well look Christopher, just one other thing before I let you go the free market thing before the Institute of Public Affairs, is saying vouchers following money goes will improve academic outcomes and reduce education disadvantage, they put a paper out. Should vouchers be Coalition Policy?

Pyne:

Well the Institute of Public Affairs is another one of the think-tanks that do exist in out society which is a very useful contributor to public policy. In the Coalition of course we'll look at all ideas as they are presented...

Aedy:

...Malcolm Turnbull has been very keen on vouchers in the past.

Pyne:

Well we need to look at all ideas, Richard, as they come along. And we will get our policy together and announce it well in advance of the next election. We won't be telegraphing our punches before that and on the other hand and the IPA's work will form part of our consideration as would any work done by think-tanks wether it's the Melbourne Institute or the Institute of Public Affairs or Sydney Institute or whatever.

Aedy:

That's where we'll leave it. Thank you very much for joining us today.

(ends)