Transcript - ABC Insiders - 19 June 2011

SUBJECTS: Carbon tax; Labor leadership; Malaysian people swap; carbon tax ad campaign; Liberal Party President

Barrie Cassidy: We'll go to our program guest now and it's the leader of Opposition business in the House of Representatives, Christopher Pyne, who joins us from Adelaide.

Good morning, welcome.

Hon Christopher Pyne MP: Good morning Barrie.

Cassidy: Well with the Labor Party the polling is the worst that we've seen for close to 40 years. I guess hubris is now your biggest enemy?

Pyne: Well Barrie the polls aren't the problem for the Labor Party; the policies are the problem for the Labor Party.

And the reason the polls are bad is because their policies are wrong. And the public knows it because they're not dills.

And the public look at things like the Malaysian people swap deal, the under-doing of the response to the live cattle exports and then the overdoing of it and now they're doing nothing about it.

They look at the carbon tax and realise that before the election they were promised they wouldn't have one and now the Prime Minister insists that she always said she was in favour of a carbon tax. And they know that's not true.

So the problem for the Labor Party is that the policies they have are wrong and are bad for Australia and that is why the poll figures are so poor.

Cassidy: You mentioned the carbon tax and the ETS. You must wonder in retrospect how it was that your own party supported an ETS?

Pyne: Well that is a good question in some respects Barrie.

But after Copenhagen of course the whole world changed. There was a lot of hope that Copenhagen would have an international response to emissions which would mean that Australia would be in step with the rest of the world and not out of step with it.

But because of Copenhagen failing, the whole world picture has change. And we can't be in a position where we have a carbon tax which makes our industries like steel just as one example so uncompetitive that they move offshore and simply emit offshore while costing Australian jobs and Australian wealth. And that is the Government's policy.

Cassidy: Yeah but that's just one argument that you put against it. You've got a whole range of arguments against it now.

So it makes you wonder why at some point John Howard, Malcolm Turnbull, Tony Abbott, Christopher Pyne all supported an ETS. Were you that far out of touch with the community?

Pyne: No I think the key change was the absolute failure of Copenhagen.

I remember when Kevin Rudd went to Copenhagen he came back a changed man. I think he believed that Copenhagen would genuinely work. And if you remember he almost went into seclusion, like a Trappist monk after Copenhagen. He wasn't seen for many, many weeks.

And it was at that time that his minders were urging him to call an election. But I think he was a shattered prime minister after Copenhagen because he realised that if the rest of the world wasn't going to move then Australia would simply be slitting its own economic throat by adopting an emissions trading scheme or a carbon tax.

Cassidy: But you seem to be saying that if Copenhagen had worked then you would have gone ahead with it and you would have closed down all those factories that Tony Abbott visits every other day.

Pyne: No I think the crucial difference is removing the competitive advantage.

And if Australia has a carbon tax when the rest of the world doesn't have a carbon tax - and it doesn't look like it's going to have one any time soon - then all we are doing is making the left feel better about themselves while the great middle class of Australia, the people who pay their mortgages, struggle with their grocery bills, look after their old age parents et cetera in nursing homes, making their lives harder while the rest of the world gets on with taking over our industries. And that's the big change in the last two years.

Cassidy: What sort of tactic does the Liberal Party follow now? Do you go flat out to try and destroy Julia Gillard and force a change of leadership in the Labor Party? Is that in your best interests?

Pyne: Well I believe that what we need to do in the Coalition is change the policies and change the Government.

Julia Gillard, Kevin Rudd - I mean they're basically both one of the same. We're not going to take sides in the great Cane and Abel battles going on in the Labor Party at the moment.

And I was amused by Malcolm Farr's talking about how Kevin Rudd was doing no more than what most people would do and actually saying he supports Julia Gillard.

Look the honest truth is if Kevin Rudd... the only thing Kevin Rudd hasn't done is ride a unicycle into Question Time blowing on a vuvuzela, demanding the leadership back.

And obviously we all know that if a person wants to kill off a leadership story they disappear from the media.

I've been in this business for long enough to know that when a putative candidate for leader is constantly in the press they are doing everything they can to remove the current person in the job, not making their life easier.

And I think anything else is you'd believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden if you didn't believe that Kevin Rudd wanted Julia Gillard's job.

But even if Kevin Rudd replaced Julia Gillard it wouldn't make any difference unless the policies change of the Government.

The Malaysian people swap deal, the response to the live cattle exports, the carbon tax, the minerals rents resources tax - all of these issues are the cancer that is virulently destroying the Labor Party's standing amongst the people.

The leadership is a side show in the Labor Party.

Cassidy: The Malaysian agreement that you mentioned, what's the significance of the parliamentary vote against that policy apart from the fact that hung parliaments can produce these sorts of outcomes?

Pyne: Well Barrie obviously that's the first time or one of the very rarest times in the history of federation which is 111 years that both Houses of Parliament have condemned a Government policy.

The most important consequence of that is that the Government has chosen to defy the Parliament's will.

And the Parliament are the representatives of the people. We are chosen as their representatives. And the fact that the Parliament opposes the Government and yet the Government intends to continue blithely on with a bad policy suggests a Government that has finally reached complete disconnection with the public and with the Parliament.

But this is also a very important issue for the Greens, Barrie, because the Greens have to be careful not to go the same way as the Australian Democrats.

The Greens have a controlling interest in the Labor Party Government. They have an alliance with them, an agreement with them. They can't just say we don't agree with Government policies but sign up to supporting the Government.

The Malaysian people swap deal is one good example. If it goes ahead the Greens are as responsible for it as the Labor Party. The carbon tax...

Cassidy: How can the Greens stop it? This is a matter for executive Government not for the Parliament as that vote demonstrated.

Pyne: Well the Greens can withdraw their support from the Government if they don't support the Government's policies.

If the Greens do not withdraw their support from a Government whose policies they don't support then they are as bad as the Government that they are supporting.

The Australian Democrats of course supported a goods and services tax which I agreed with. But their base recoiled in horror when they did that.

If the Greens support a Malaysian people swap deal by supporting a Government that introduces it they are as bad as the Labor Party.

If the Greens support a carbon tax which they admit is not going to go as far as they want it to go and is not going to change people's behaviour, then why are they in the Government?

The truth is if they support a carbon tax which they criticise but also support they are as bad as the Government and as bad as the party that's implementing it.

So the Greens can't slide away from bad policy decisions of this Government. They wear them as much as the Labor Party does.

Cassidy: You say that the Labor Party should drop the policy because Parliament voted against it, that is, the Malaysian agreement.

Would you then put up the Nauru solution to the Parliament and then drop it if the Parliament voted against it?

And probably likewise with the parental leave scheme and the direct action on climate change - put them all up, let the Parliament vote, and if it votes against them, drop them.

Pyne: Well we're not in government, Barrie. But if we were in government and we put our policies to the Parliament and they passed the House of Representatives then we know that that is the normal course of events for a government.

If the Senate then didn't support them well that has happened a dime a dozen times over the last 30 years, as we know, because hardly any government has controlled the Senate since 1980 so that wouldn't be unusual.

The main thing about last week, the thing that was so dramatic on Thursday is not only has the Senate condemned the Government's Malaysian people swap deal but the House of Representatives has where the Government is formed.

And I take you back to 1961/63 when the Menzies government called an election because they'd lost four votes on the floor of the House of Parliament.

Well this Government has lost 17 votes on the floor of the House of Parliament. And as Menzies said the people deserve an unambiguous government that is able to govern unambiguously.

The problem with this Government is that they are pretending that they are governing but in fact they don't have the support of the Lower House of the Parliament.

And any political party with any political integrity would say it was time to go back to the Australian people and seek a mandate, especially for a policy in the carbon tax which they lied about before the election only 10 months ago.

Cassidy: But they still have the support of the independents and the Greens and that's the bottom line.

Pyne: But, Barrie, do they? I mean on Thursday the independents and the crossbenchers voted with the Opposition against the Government.

Now that's not the first time that has happened. It's happened 17 times. And the people, the field evidence out amongst the people, moving amongst my electorate, is that they believe the Government is uncertain, we are drifting, there is an ambiguous government in Canberra.

They don't like it. They want clear leadership and direction from the Government they have in Canberra and they're not going to get it under this current regime.

Cassidy: Just on the parliamentary tactics, have you devalued the censure motion or the currency of the censure motion? I mean 28 Question Times, they've been interrupted 12 times by suspending standing orders.

Pyne: Well, Barrie, the truth is that the Prime Minister and the Treasurer never answer the question. It doesn't matter what the question is they give the same ridiculous answer. They completely avoid answering the question.

And even though Harry Jenkins tries manfully to get them to stay directly relevant, there's only so much he can do if they defy the chair over and over again. And he has been as strong as he could be quite frankly as Speaker and yet they continue to defy the Speaker.

Now the censure motion is a good mechanism for an opposition to highlight a government that refuses to take responsibility for their bad policy and also refuses to answer questions.

And the fact that the Government and the Labor Party complain about it and whinge and moan about it every day suggests to me as manager of Opposition business it's a tactic that is working.

Cassidy: On government advertising do you ever feel slightly hypocritical when you condemn the Government for spending money in this way, $12 million on the carbon tax?

Pyne: Well what's really remarkable about the Government's announcement on Thursday and I think Tony Windsor and Robert Oakeshott were absolutely right, is that they are announcing a $12 million advertising campaign for a carbon tax but we don't know what the carbon tax is.

I mean the Government keeps talking about their carbon tax structure but we don't know the price, we don't know what, if any, compensation will be paid, we don't know what tax cuts, if any, will be delivered, we don't know what industries will be compensated or excluded or exempted. We keep asking all those questions.

Cassidy: No, no. But the advertising will only take place when those questions are answered. That's what they're saying.

Pyne: Well and when, and when will that be? I mean what kind of government is this? I mean the level...

Cassidy: At that point you could justify it couldn't you because this is an issue that does confuse people.

Pyne: Well let's wait and see. I mean the level of incompetence of this Government is so manifest. I mean they've announced their $12 million advertising campaign for a carbon tax but they can't tell us when the carbon tax detail will be announced and of course earned the wrath of the crossbenchers and the public for spending taxpayers' money on an advertising campaign that is advertising nothing at the moment.

I mean they are unbelievably bad. And I think that is the really virulent cancer at the heart of this Government. The public knows they are incompetent and they are thoroughly sick of it.

Cassidy: Just finally in the race for the presidency of the Liberal Party are you Peter Reith or Alan Stockdale?

Pyne: Well, Barrie, I'm a great believer that the organisation should make these decisions about the leadership of our lay party.

I don't think that the, whether you're a member of the shadow cabinet or a retiring senator or an MP on the backbench, I really don't think the organisation wants to be told what to do by the parliamentary party.

The organisation doesn't tell us who our leader should be and it's not up to us to tell the organisation who their president should be.

I am sure that either Alan Stockdale or Peter Reith, whomever is elected next week, either man will be an excellent president.

And I'm looking forward to federal council. It's great to have a vote. At least we have a vote in the Liberal Party. In the Labor Party these decisions are made by the faceless men in smoky rooms behind closed doors, as we know.

Cassidy: Thanks for your time this morning.

Pyne: Pleasure.

ENDS