Transcript - ABC 891 - Two Chrisses - 5 October 09

SUBJECTS: ETS; the Australian Sex Party; State/National ICAC

(greetings omitted)

Bevan:

(Raises Xenophon and ETSA sale in SA) we've got ETS, and it's being embraced. As a matter of fact his model is going to be used by Malcolm Turnbull. In cahoots with Nick Xenophon. That...a little bit odd to you?

Pyne:

Well, what happens in the State level in terms of ETSA is now so old hat, I must admit I didn't follow that debate as closely as you guys would've but...Tom Playford once said 'you have different friends on different days for different reasons' and following politics, Nick Xenophon is equally concerned about the Government's Emissions Trading Scheme as the Opposition is. He, equally with us has offered to negotiate with them a set of amendments and principals that will improve it. The Government, at first said that they wanted to talk to the Opposition, now they're just arrogantly dismissing the Opposition's suggestions. They apparently know what's best and are refusing to negotiate with either us or Xenophon and even, indeed, the Greens. Let alone Senator Fielding. So now we're in this rather peculiar position, where the Government doesn't have the numbers in the Senate, and yet are refusing to negotiate with anyone which makes me think they actually don't want their Emissions Trading Scheme to pass on Thursday. Mr Rudd has said it's the most important thing happening in the entire world and he refuses to sit down and talk to anybody about the flaws in it. Nick Xenophon and Malcolm Turnbull are today launching the report from Frontier Economics, which shows that with a different scheme, it could cost the Government a lot less money, cost a lot less jobs and potentially achieve better outcomes. You would have thought that a Government would want to get the best outcome, or at least be prepared to talk about it rather than just dismiss it.

Abraham:

Some people might be suspicious though, of an Emissions Trading Scheme that won't inflict much pain.

Pyne:

Look, I agree with that. The Americans are, at the moment, debating a Bill in the Senate, which will institute an Emissions Trading Scheme that wouldn't do anything like the damage that Mr Rudd and Senator Wong's scheme will do. I mean the idea...the trick of politics and Government and economy is to try and get the outcome you want. While also maintaining a strong economy, jobs, low inflation etcetera. It's not designed to inflict pain on the public. Now Mr Rudd keeps saying 'this isn't going to be easy', 'this is going to be harder than World War III' or some overblown rhetoric but that's more spin than substance. What the Opposition's offering is an Emissions Trading Scheme that will achieve the outcomes and more of Mr Rudd's scheme without costing jobs right across Australia and without costing small business more money and without costing Pensioners, quite frankly, increased electricity bills and Mr Rudd should discuss it with us.

Schacht:

Can I just say...the problem the Government has, is that the Greens need the Bill , is too weak and the Liberal Government....Opposition think is too strong. So whichever way the Government goes, a part of the Senate says it's not good enough - too hard and too strong or too weak. So the Government has got a problem, to try and find a way in which they can get enough votes to get in what they want through, which is difficult. What Nick Xenophon's final position is, will he negotiate with the Liberal Party. They still, that is, they've got the votes of the Liberal Party by themselves with his vote alone. Obviously I have to say that the Government's obviously got to hold its position and if it doesn't get anywhere I suspect we're facing a Double Dissolution on this issue.

Pyne:

C1, you know...if the Government, I don't mind the Government holding its position with an Emissions Trading Scheme, but every single piece of important legislation that ever comes to the Senate almost always gets amended. And yet the Government's insisting that apparently, on the most important Bill in history, they refuse to consider any amendments or negotiate in principal. That suggests to me, that what they want is to set up a treaty for a Double Dissolution. Again putting politics ahead of the economy.

Schacht:

Have you actually tabled, the Liberal Party that is, detailed each of your individual amendments to the Senate already, or are you talking about a general discussion? Or have you got a specific detailed proposal to amend the Bill clause by clause in conjunction with Nick Xenophon now?

Pyne:

Well we've got two things -we've got a set of Principals, nine principals that we're prepared to sit down and negotiate with the Government over and now we have today the Frontier Economics report which makes a suggestion on how to improve this Bill...

Schacht:

...is that going to lead to actual specific amendments that you're going to table in the Senate, that can then be debated?

Abraham:

...you could put under our own legislation, I suppose...

Schacht:

...an alternative Bill or move that the whole Bill be deleted after the word ""that"" and then the whole new Bill goes on for 40, 50, 200 pages...

Abraham:

Why would they do that?

Schacht:

...I heard a week ago that...

Pyne:

...the actual phrase is 'that all words after ""that"" be omitted with a view to substitute for the following words'...

Bevan:

...is that what you're going to do?

Pyne:

look the Senate principals and Frontier ...just a second! Can I answer the question?

Abraham:

Well you've have a couple of goes at it.

Pyne:

...then the answer is yes! If the Government is prepared to consider these principals, we will turn them into amendments. Is that alright?

Schacht:

Look Chris, you've got to be fair dinkum here mate, you're...

Pyne:

...how can we actually have written amendments when the Government hasn't even tabled the regulations? ... Just a minute! The vast majority of the detail in this is not even in the Bill, it is a set of regulations that have not even been tabled or published yet. The Government's insisting that we vote for a piece of legislation on trust. On trust that the regulations won't be very different than the Bill. If they...

Schacht:

But how...

Pyne:

...they were 'fair dinkum'! If they were fair dinkum, they would publish the regulations, sit down with the Opposition, and draft amendments. We will give them amendments when they indicate that they are prepared to...

Abraham:

Just stop talking for a minute Chris Pyne, why are you so agitated? Chris Schacht, he's saying that the...

Schacht:

...the regulation.

Abraham:

...he's saying the devil is in the detail, the Government itself hasn't published...

Schacht:

When they do publish the regulations, they are a disallowable instrument in the Senate. And if Christopher Pyne or the Liberals and Xenophon...they can disallow the regulations saying they don't like them, go and do a new set. So the regulations can't be put through without...

Pyne:

...they can't afford to put the horse before the cart...

Schacht:

No, no. You cannot afford to say the regulations are all automatic. The Senate has consistently over the years disallowed Government regulations when they've been tabled and that is part of the process. And you can do that if you don't like the regulations, after any Bill has been carried.

Bevan:

Matthew Abraham and David Bevan...well we're trying to get a word in edgeways. And Chris Pyne, C2 and Chris Schacht, C1. Chris Pyne, Liberal MP for Sturt, speaking to us from Canberra and Chris Schacht, former Labor Senator and ALP State Secretary ... Just to change of track here, from our news this morning, the Electoral Commission has officially approved the registration of the Australian Sex Party, warning that the new Party's not obscene. The Australian Electoral Commission registered the new Party as a legitimate political group over the weekend, with a membership of about 3000.

Schacht:

...that's nice, isn't it?

Bevan:

A lot of people must like sex.

Pyne:

Is that what you were going to say? I was going to say it would have had a membership of 500.

Bevan:

That's a lot more than the Democrats have!

Pyne:

I find that very hard to believe, quite frankly. 3000 gentlemen? I find that very hard...how do they join up? Do they have to...

Bevan:

...take a video?

Schacht:

...I have to say that's not a joke. The main thing is that you've got to show 3000 names to the Electoral Commission. How'd they collect the 3000 names, did they go out and doorknock people and get people to sign a certificate, or were the 3000 collected by some semi-commercial operation, where people take out a DVD video?

Bevan:

Is there anything wrong with that?

Schacht:

No, but well...the thing is...

Bevan:

...people know what they're doing...

Schacht:

...or do these people know, as Chris suggested, that they're genuinely joining a political party?

Bevan:

And we've just had an SAJC...

Schacht:

...if they've 3000 members...that would make them, after the Liberal and Labor Party, the third-biggest Party, by membership, in South Australia.

Abraham:

A sex shop owner in Townsville reported on (unclear) news in North Queensland, Colin Edward has been working on the creation of the Party for almost...

Schacht:

...it's a national Party...it's national, not State?

Abraham:

But 3000, even nationally is...

Schacht:

...it wouldn't be quite as big as Labor or Liberal at the national...

Abraham:

But it's the same old crowd who have been lobbying for the sex industry and for pornography for years. Fiona Patten has mentioned (unclear) this morning ...

Schacht:

...well it's a free country...it's a democracy...the voters will make the decision...

Bevan:

...sure, well why don't they call themselves the Australian Pornography Party?

Abraham:

Well, with a name like that, Chris Schacht, The Australian Sex Party, No-one would seriously become voters, in the Upper House or...

Schacht:

...in their defence, what they're promising...

Bevan:

...well would there be people in ... they'd seriously say...the Sex Party, I'll vote for them!

Schacht:

...and Chicholina, the pornography actress in Italy, got elected two times in a row to the national...it was a protest...people were so fed up with the major Parties, they did it as a protest vote and she got elected. Actually, I'm told, she wasn't a bad Parliamentary performer in the Parliamentary sense, as well as something else. ... I'm a solid performer, yes!

Bevan:

Now look. Now why don't they call themselves the Australian Pornography Party or would that just be not as electorally appealing?

Pyne:

I agree with Schachty, it's a free country. If people want to vote for the Australian Sex Party, there'll be very, very, very few that do. I mean, I've seen many of these kinds of Parties ...

Abraham:

...isn't it just a front for pornographers, though?

Pyne:

...well the Labor Party's just a front for the Union movement, so...I guess they're allowed to...

Bevan:

...you never let a chance go by to bring that up! Anyhow...

Schacht:

...I'm not gonna say anything to offend the Australian Sex Party or whatever they call them. The Adult Sex Information Service, as I understand it, they sell DVD's...

Pyne:

...where did you get that from?

Schacht:

DVDs or whatever they distribute...

Pyne:

...I've never heard about that before...how did you know about that?

Schacht:

Because when I was in Parliament in the late 80s, they came and lobbied Members of Parliament to make changes to the Act...on the Broadcast and on the Censorship Act. As I understand it, the stuff they distribute, whatever you may think about taste, is in accordance with the rules of the Office of Film and Literature Corporation, which is a Federal Government body that puts classification on all materials. If they don't get a classification, you then get charged for distributing non-classified materials. As I understand it, that mob, if I think it's the same mob, only distribute material...that is legally approved by the Office of Film and Literature Corporation.

Abraham:

Well Fiona Patten and Robbie Swan...was from the Eros Foundation, based in Canberra in the brown paper bag...the poor capital of the country. The Eros Foundation - the Adult Retail and Entertainment Association.

Schacht:

...well the ACT Government earns 10s of millions of dollars a year by licensing ... the ACT. And when Liberals were in power in the ACT and Labor...they have not stopped it. The same in the Northern Territory...it's also illegal in the Northern Territory to distribute X-rated material neither the Country Liberal Party and the Country Labor Party in the Northern Territory have stopped it. ...let's talk about something more broad and profound.

Abraham:

Isobel Redmond ... was on the radio before 9 o'clock and Chris Schacht, you heard her beforehand. And she bought into the argument about the Stolen Generations and the Aboriginal Legal Rights movement complaining that Michael Atkinson hasn't made any progress on fast-tracking cases. As a result of that, a number of Aboriginal families are going to have to go to court to try and get what they say, is justice. Now Isobel Redmond came on the program this morning and said the Government should be trying to work out a way, so that these people don't have to go through the painful process of legal action.

Schacht:

Well I have to say...when I listened to what she said, which wasn't very long and she said they're going to form a committee to hear ... she said they would do it in Government etcetera. It's not often, or it's very seldom I see that, in one definition, that a Leader of the Liberal Party anywhere in Australia may be seen as being to the left of the Labor Party on issues in any was related to Aboriginal affairs. And if that's where she's going, it will be a very interesting time in the coming election. If, first of all, what are the woodsmen in her own Party, the Conservatives, going to say about a Liberal Leader who's talking what position, and secondly what are the genuine small liberal voters, many of them Labor voters, looking at Miss Isobel taking up this position...I'm really more interested in what it means where she's taking the Liberal Party if this is true, and sticks at it, which will make a more interesting political climate for us old political aficionado hacks like me!

Abraham:

...it was interesting, because we said 'what's your view on this?' and quite unprompted, he referred to an ICAC. And he said 'look, this Government drags the chain on a number of issues and he used the example of an ICAC. And I wonder wether that's a signal?

Bevan:

It's on the radar now, as an issue for the Premier.

Schacht:

...got quoted in the paper at the weekend. One of the papers being a supporter of ICAC and I just repeated several ...I've always supported an ICAC at a State level. I'm not in line with Labor Party policy at the moment on this. I know that the Premier has said, only recently, that if there was a national ICAC he would be opposed to that ...

Bevan:

...there was a letter to the 'Tiser pointing out that, why not have a world ICAC?

Schacht:

If you had a national ICAC how would it operate in each state jurisdiction? The interesting thing is, some people have interpreted it as the Premier has made a small change in his position. I think that there's no doubt in his mind to accept the ICAC issue is on the radar screen and around. Wether it's an issue that shifts votes, that's the fundamental issue for the election.

Bevan:

But what starts as a discussion with the head of Aboriginal affairs and the Aboriginal Legal Rights movement becomes ... there's a feel about the Government. You know the message, that they're dragging the chain and...

Schacht:

...all I can say is that I am a supporter and...

Bevan:

...is that a danger for them?

Schacht:

You don't ignore that sort of thinking and if you were a campaign director as I was, you would put that on the list of things...

Abraham:

...to pretend you're doing something about it...

Schacht:

No, no.

Abraham:

Chris Pyne, just finally?

Pyne:

I think the public are surprised about the issue of the I.C.A.C. of the ICAC...it has become such a bugbear for the Government. Most South Australians would think it's (unclear) that there be a group or a body or an office that oversights potential corruption. (inaudible) ...if there wasn't some level of corruption at some level of the beauracracy or Government or elsewhere in the police force, the local Government etcetera and the New South Wales, Queensland, Western Australia have had these kinds of pulleys for some time. It begs the question, why Mike Rann and the Government don't want to have an I.C.A.C. and I think the South Australian public support one. Martin Hamilton-Smith was on the right track by raising that issue when he was the leader of the Opposition and Isobel Redmond is correct to continue to support one.

Abraham:

...I notice, Chris Pyne, that you were lecturing your colleague at the weekend to stick with Malcolm.

Pyne:

Well there's absolutely no reason for the Liberal Party to change its Leader and we won't be changing its Leader. The point I was making on the Sunday program yesterday was that those people who are continuing to...there's a very small handful of them but they can be very damaging. Those people who are speculating are continuing to hurt marginal seat holders and should take a long, hard look at themselves. They're not going to achieve a change in the Liberal Party Leadership. 99% of the Liberal Party is 100% behind Malcolm Turnbull, he will lead us to the next election ... well obviously there are two or three people who are regularly appearing, anonymously of course, in Cowardice Castle behind the cowardice of being anonymous sources. It's a pretty low kind of behaviour but there are a couple doing that and therefore the 99%. But 99% of the party are 100% behind Malcolm Turnbull and he will lead us to the election, therefore their actions are unnecessary and foolhardy and bloody-minded and I look forward to Malcolm Turnbull leading us to the election because he's the right man for the job.

(ends)