Transcript - ABC 891 Two Chrisses - 24 Aug 2009

SUBJECTS:Chris Schacht's position in Marathon Resources, Nuclear Power, elections

(greetings omitted)

Matthew Abraham:

Chris Schacht, last week in 'The Australian' Michael Owen wrote a piece about you and lobbying. David and I had a good look at it and we thought we'd raise it with you on Monday...and from memory there was nothing in there that you had not said at some point or another on this program over a couple of years but to go through it again...you are a lobbyist. And what do you do?

Schacht:

Well first of all the story was about uranium and the company called Marathon Resources and about the fact that I might have been lobbying the Premier and State Government Ministers about Marathon's license to, in the...to explore and drill for prospects of uranium in the Flinders Ranges. What I explained to Mr Owen when he rang me is that I am a Director of the company, it's a public listed company and I have, under law disclosed this to all the shareholders of the company. And quite a few of them live in South Australia...and are mums and dads. And I've declared that on this program over two or three years on a number of occasions. I told him that as far as Marathon is concerned I'm a Company Director, I'm not a lobbyist, I don't have to register.

David Bevan:

... in your capacity as a Director, have you lobbied the State Government over Marathon Resources potential activities?)

Schacht:

Well as Company Director I've spoken to the Premier, I've been on a trade delegation and I did a program last year travelling with the Premier from China and openly said I'm on this trade delegation with the Premier in China as a Director of Marathon Resources. Because potentially if we develop a mine China would be a major market for uranium.

Abraham:

... were you made a director after working as a lobbyist for the company?

Schacht:

I did some lobbying the first year and a half. I was an in...I had been an initial shareholder of the company from the day it was floated. And had been...then did some lobbying work at a very limited level and then they invited me to join the board, and I accepted that invitation. All declared on this program and asked elsewhere.

Bevan:

What were you asking the Premier to do for Marathon Resources?

Schacht:

Well I spoke to him and...he knew that I was on the delegation as a director of Marathon and he knew the issues that we had.

Bevan:

Yeah, what were you asking him to do for Marathon Resources?

Schacht:

No, I just said we have got issues to deal with and at the appropriate time we'll speak to the State Government about developing the mine and the Government will make its own decision.

Bevan:

So you didn't have any talks beyond just saying to the Premier ' I've got some issues to talk about?'

Schacht:

Absolutely! Because I'd be stupid to try and do anything else other than to explain to the Premier and the Minister of Resources, Paul Holloway, and I've been on a trade delegation to China with him, also declared on this program, about the future of this potential mine.

Abraham:

Now look, you wouldn't just say...

Bevan:

...'let's get around to it sometime'

Abraham:

'I'm on this delegation, someone will talk to you in the future' and then you'd...

Schacht:

...no. No.

Abraham:

Then you'd be saying 'this is a great opportunity for South Australia', or...

Schacht:

... of course because...on the delegation while I was...when the Premier...we met a number of potential Chinese companies, and one of them is Government owned that is in charge of all uranium sales for China. We went to that meeting, I've been there separately from the Premier. That's part of the job as a company director. In the end the Premier knew it and the Premier was one of the major issues he spoke to in China and in Hong Kong, at functions. Was pointing out that South Australia has up to 40% of the world's uranium resources and that in the long term that it would be an area that China would be interested in purchasing uranium from companies in South Australia, and he made no bones about that. And we just said 'well we're potentially, on our website, show that we could be one of the major uranium mines in South Australia. Could be the---either the second or third biggest.'

Bevan:

Do you think you were asked to become a Director of Marathon because of your ties within the Labor Party?

Schacht:

When they'd first approached me is because I'd been active in the company, done some work and because more of my knowledge of doing business in China was I think the first area.

Bevan:

So they didn't say 'well it's also going to be handy that you've got a longstanding history with the Labor Party'?

Schacht:

No, they said it would be my knowledge in the political process, not just Labor Party, but State and Federal, being a former Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, I've lead human rights delegations to China.

Bevan:

Yeah, but do they expect you to be able to pick up the phone and get easy access to members of the Labor Party?

Schacht:

I made clear to them that that's not necessarily the way it works and it'd be stupid for them to accept that. I would be able to explain as a director on the board how the political process works...and all of them have a pretty good idea anyway, but I was invited by them to join the board and I accepted the invitation and don't regret one bit doing it. I've always declared to all your listeners whenever the issue of uranium comes up what my interests are.

Abraham:

Chris Pyne, the issue of uranium and nuclear power came up at the State meeting of the Annual State Conference...Convention. Is it 'convention' or 'conference'?

Pyne:

We call it the Liberal Party State Council.

Abraham:

Ok, that will do. So on the weekend and the vote was to have a debate about whether the state should have a nuclear power plant, is that correct?

Pyne:

Well there was a anodyne motion passed, which that the Federal Government should have a debate about, you know, nuclear power. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with having a debate about nuclear power. It's really...it's hardly controversial calling for a debate about anything.

Abraham:

Well Kevin Foley has a different view. He says that Isobel Redmond can't crack her troops into line. That here she is as a Leader letting this run and Mike Rann would never let that little rabbit out of the hat in an election year.

Pyne:

Well the Labor Party doesn't really welcome democracy, that's for sure. I mean, their pre-selection's are tied up by a couple of gentlemen sitting around... having lunch and deciding who gets the pre-selections and so are their policies. They don't actually have any familiarity with allowing their grass roots to debate policy...I mean heavens no! Imagine that, if the grass roots of the membership actually had an idea! So of course Kevin Foley found it controversial because they're totally unused to genuine debate.

Schacht:

Well I think it is that the Liberal Party conference can come to any resolutions it likes, it's got no effort to be binding on the Parliamentary Party. There's always a debate in the Labor Party on issues because, you know, conference carries a resolution, such as we did on uranium with the Three Mines Policy that was binding on the Federal and State Labor Governments, and it was carried out for 20 years that's the difference. You can carry any resolution you like, in the Annual General Meeting of the Liberal Party, but the Party itself...the Parliamentary Party itself doesn't have to carry it out. I can ignore it. The Liberal party can ignore it, and take the risk there'll be a big blue about it.

Bevan:

Has the Labor Party always...have MPs, Labor MPs always been bound by Labor Party Convention Policy, or have there been exceptions where Governments have just ignored the will of the convention. I'm thinking of like the WorkCover debate.

Schacht:

There have been times where you could argue that the convention has said one thing and the Labor Party Caucus, which has the right to interpret, has stretched the interpretation a bit, to say the least. But the point is, there was an argument, there was a debate where some trade union officials got up at the floor of conference and got stuck into the Premier in front of everybody, in front of the media, etcetera, because it was an issue that was strongly felt and it was about policy.

Abraham:

Now onto other matters - because it does seem to be a bit of an overlap with parties like Malcolm Turnbull and this morning, I think, Tony Abbott saying that he'd considered joining the Labor Party...Chris Pyne, this is a bit like 'have you inhaled?'...have you ever considered joining the Labor Party or been approached to join the Labor Party?

Schacht:

Heaven forbid!

Abraham:

Christopher Pyne? I think he's passed out at the other end...

Pyne:

... I'm back!

Abraham:

Chris Pyne?

Pyne:

Sorry, I think I missed a bit of that, the line had dropped out, but...I think we were talking about the 'bindingness' of policies from Council. About the nuclear debate, can I say...Australia doesn't have a nuclear energy capacity. We have a very small nuclear reactor at Lucas Heights, which we use to produce the very important isotopes for cancer treatment and a few other things. The other countries that have nuclear energy have had it for decades, therefore they have already got the infrastructure in place and the capacity that they need. For us to now try and begin a nuclear energy capacity would be so prohibitively expensive that it will never, never get off the ground. Quite apart from the fact that there isn't bipartisan support for nuclear energy and there isn't any commitment from the Liberal Party to produce nuclear energy. Just, you know, an openness to debate. One, it'll never succeed politically and secondly, it'll never succeed economically. So it really is pie in the sky to be talking about nuclear energy when we have, you know, so much space, 770 million hectares I think, we can use for wind energy, for solar power, we have investments in geothermal, hot rocks, tidal power. There's absolutely no necessity nor appetite for nuclear energy in Australia.

Abraham:

Chris Pyne, now I think while your line was down we did ask also whether you'd been approached or had considered joining the Labor Party? At any time in your life?

Pyne:

I can't recall ever being approached to join the Labor Party and I have never, ever considered joining the Labor Party and I've never approached the Labor Party to join them. I've been a Liberal through and through since I can remember, in fact I used to wear to school, in 1975, when I was in grade three, at the tender age of 9, the 'turn on the lights: Liberal' badge! That was our slogan for the '75 election campaign. And I think if you ask anybody in my social circle of the last 20...30 years, they'll all tell you that one of the more embarrassing features of their friend Christopher Pyne, is his obsession with supporting the Liberal Party and...

Abraham:

...you didn't get beaten up at school for any of that? In grade three!?

Pyne:

No, never! In grade three...in 1975...year three in Saint Ignatius Norwood wearing a badge to school saying 'turn on the lights: Liberal' and I can assure you that no-one...

Abraham:

...no-one punched you? Out your lights?

Pyne:

No!

Abraham:

...you have a better pedigree that your leader, Malcolm Turnbull? Who, depending on which version of events you believe...has been approached, or considered joining the Labor Party...

Pyne:

Look, I'm sure Malcolm's been approached over the years to join the Labor Party because he's a great talent and a very high profile leader of the Republican Movement of the '90s.  But he's made it absolutely clear that he's got no intention of joining the Labor Party and actions speak louder than words. He's a member of the Liberal Party, he stood for preselection for a State seat over 20 years ago...and he's not the Federal leader of the Liberal Party. But even if he had, quite frankly, who cares? Brendan Nelson was the Leader of the Liberal Party, he was a 20 year member of the Labor Party for goodness sake!

Abraham:

Well it does make you wonder who wants to be a member of the Liberal Party anymore because you've got the Nationals trying to get the Liberals to defect and you've got, according to some reports, Malcolm Turnbull considering doing a Cheryl!

Pyne:

Well Malcolm...now that's not really fair. Now Malcolm's never, there are no stories at the moment, that suggest Malcolm Turnbull might leave the Liberal Party. There are stories where people are making fanciful claims about how Malcolm Turnbull approached them for the Labor Party but again I say it quite frankly doesn't matter very much. I mean I've never thought about it, I like being a Liberal...I believe the Liberal Party is the Party for free enterprise, the Party for the individual and I want them to be in Government. If somebody else...I mean if people considered joining different Parties, what does it matter? It's a democracy, they can change if they want to and it doesn't make the slightest difference!

Abraham:

Christopher Schacht...you've had a long involvement with the Republican movement.

Schacht:

Well I was on the committee for the National Committee for the Republican Movement through the '90s, leading right up to the referendum disaster...so crucial time, yes. And Malcolm was the Chairman of it and I went to quite a few Republican functions, even before the campaign, when Malcolm spoke etcetera. I had chats with him, and discussions and I have to say there was a lot of comment around...if Malcolm was going to go politically, because of his strong views on the issue, the better place for...natural place for him to be was on the Labor Party. Now I didn't talk with him about joining the Labor party, and he never discussed it with me, but I certainly know that other people in the Labor Party were aware of, 'cuz of the general interest that he was in, and what I was a little surprised at that so shortly after the defeat of the Republican Referendum, which he was very disappointed about it, and said so, he joined the Liberal Party and became their chief fundraiser for a couple of years and the rest, they say, is history. He got preselected...

Bevan:

Did he ever say to you 'I wouldn't mind joining the Labor Party'?

Schacht:

No. Never said that to me outright. But I never asked him, either. It was always a discussion about why John Howard was opposing the Republican Movement, the Republican issue, when the Labor Party was supporting it...and that should be the natural place for you, Malcolm!

Bevan:

So nothing obvious and open about joining the...

Schacht:

...nothing to me, no.

Bevan:

It was just a background assumption, that because of his Republican view, if he was to get into politics, that he would join the Labor Party...

Schacht:

...and I was aware of other people in the Labor Party are separate from the general...of the Liberal Party would say 'well is Malcolm going to be a member of the Labor Party because he's such a strong Republican?'

Bevan:

Now Liam rang to ask: 'was Don Dunstan ever involved in the Liberal Party?'

Schacht:

Well I...

Pyne:

...I think I can shed some light on that!

Bevan:

Yes, go ahead.

Pyne:

Well the story I was told growing up was that Don Dunstan was a member of the Liberal Club at Adelaide University. My father was the President of the Adelaide University Liberal Club and (unclear) there was a ballot for President and this could well be an apocraphyl story so I preface it with that, but Melhouse (sic) won it and beat Don Dunstan. Don walked out and he'd never come back again!

Abraham:

Ha-ha, he spat the dummy?

Pyne:

He spat the dummy and joined the Labor Party! And again: who cares?! This is the silly part of it, people's beliefs...you know people change over time and I think somebody famous said something about people at 20 not having a heart if they were Socialists...and at 40 they were still not having a brain if they were still Socialists! People change over time, and I'm probably more unusual because I've always believed in the Liberal Party...

Abraham:

...you've never had a heart?

Pyne:

Well some people do say that, of course...a very black heart, perhaps.

Abraham:

Chris Schacht: Don Dunstan?

Schacht:

Well I think it's correct that he was, for a short period in the Liberal Club at Adelaide Uni. In fact, I always thought one of the reasons I thought the Adelaide establishment was so hostile to Dunstan...they all saw...were very angry that he wanted to be a major figure for the Liberal Party when he kept winning 5 elections for the Labor Party. They all thought this guy should have been...but Dunstan at the same time, would have been already in a Trade Union that which was affiliated with the Labor Party and...

Pyne:

...not very militant, I think?

Schacht:

Not very militant...but he always very proud of the fact that he had a ticket in the Union.

Pyne:

...until they grant our rights, we'll go read poetry on North Terrace...

Schacht:

...all I can say is that I agree with you, Chris, at the University level, if you joined the Labor Club in Adelaide University it doesn't make you a member of the Labor Party. That's a separate issue. The Labor Club is not affiliated to the Labor Party, and therefore to...I think the Liberal Club is the same. It's an open forum where people come and go.

Abraham:

Well the current Premier is a member of the Media Entertainment and Arts Alliance, which absorbed the old...equity

Pyne:

Well let's not forget, in Liberal Party history, we had two non-Labor Prime Ministers who were members of the Labor Party and then and then went on to lead the non-Labor side of politics! Billy Hughes was a Labor then went on to serve as Nationalist Prime Minister with the non-Labor forces, the Conservative Liberal forces and then Joseph Aloysius-Lyons was the Prime Minister throughout the '30s...he was the Treasurer for a Labor Government! He ended up leading the Liberal Party for something like...eight years!

Schacht:

So they're Party rats...all of them.

Abraham:

And we had Tom Playford. Some saying the best Labor Premier the State's ever had!

Pyne:

(laughter) that's right!

Abraham:

So now Jack from West Croydon...hello Jack?

Caller Jack:

Hello. It's interesting, the political affiliations with Don Dunstan and I acknowledge him as a great South Australian - we all do. But I've just got an autobiography by one of him compatriots at Adelaide University, by a guy called Peter Brokenshire. It's called 'Coming to Wisdom slowly'.  He was a fellow student with Don Dunstan post-war and he says 'an earnest young law student, Don Dunstan was an active member of the Socialist Club, and very briefly our Communist Group. That had the Adelaide University Branch of the Australian Communist Party and he only remained that very briefly'. 'He then went on to On-Dit in March 1947' and of course here it says 'by 1948 he was becoming an active member of the Australian Labor Party'. So like a lot of students, Don Dunstan had a varied...

Abraham:

...but no mention of the Liberal Party, Jack?

Caller Jack:

Nah, no mention. Interestingly, that badge Chris Pyne talked about in terms of 'turn on the lights', there was an addition to that. Turn on the lights: you can't trust the buggers in the dark!

Schacht: 

Well can I just say on parting that I was the Party Assistant-Secretary at the time of that campaign. The only nice thing about the 'turn on the lights' campaign was one of the Liberal supporters drove around during the day with their lights on and in those days there were no warning lights that if you left the car the lights were still on. So lots of Liberals ended up with flat batteries!

Pyne:

You say that, Schatty, but I think you should know the full story! In '75 the Liberal Party...

Schacht:

...that's what I'm saying.

Pyne:

...the greatest victory in the history in Federation.

Abraham:

One Chris at a time!

Schacht:

Christopher, I'm only saying that...was a landslide against us. Lost by 30% or something in the Federal election got sacked by the Governor-General who ended up as a drunk.

Pyne:

Careful!

Schacht:

Well he's dead now. So he can't...I'm very brave! Yeah, dead right Chris the only nice thing I can think about with that slogan is some Liberals ended up with flat batteries!

Pyne:

I remember the jingle, and I think the jingle was excellent!

Schacht:

Trick question: Who sang it? Who was the singer who sang 'turn the lights on' for the Liberal Party in that election?

Abraham:

It's a quiet day in Adelaide!

Pyne:

Look, I remember, but it's not on the tip of my tongue!

Schacht:

Renée Geyer. For the Liberal Party.

Pyne:

Renée Geyer! It was too. Good on Renée ...1975...so we had the biggest victory that had ever been achieved in a Federal election. And '77 we follow it up with the second-biggest victory in history...

Schacht:

Biggest victory you had since 1931, when the Labor Party split and became three Parties.

Pyne:

Until, of course, John Howard came along in '96. A trip down Memory Lane...

Abraham:

...well we're enjoying it...

Pyne:

A trip down memory lane...'96 we had a very big victory too...it's be interesting to see what C1 thinks of this - most of the big landslides are to the non-Labor parties. Even when Gough won in '72 it wasn't actually a landslide, the landslide had been in '69 ... talking Federally here...

Schacht:

The reason, in terms of seats, is that Labor has never had the biggest...other than in '43, where we won every seat in Australia west of...Bendigo or you know...other than the seat of Barker.

Pyne:

...unusual time...

Schacht:

...unusual time. The Liberal Party...the Conservatives had split into about 5 different parties at that time. Billy Hughes at the age of 80 was, for a short time, the leader of the Opposition! During the Second World War...against the Curtin Government...

Pyne:

...he refused to call a Party Meeting.

Schacht:

As Billy Hughes said, the reason why the Labor Party never gets a Landslide is that the core of Liberal voters, who are in rural areas, who no matter how bad the Liberal Party is, will always vote Liberal and Labor voters...in urban areas will sometimes, if they think the Labor Party is not doing well, will think about voting Liberal.

Pyne:

God Bless them!

(ends)