Transcript - ABC 891 Two Chrisses - 13 July 2009

SUBJECTS: Isobel Redmond, New State Liberal Leader; early election; Tony Abbott's comments on 'fault' divorce; Ex-MPs on the ""Gravy Train""

Greetings omitted

Abraham:

... this is really the first two Chris' since we've had a new Opposition Leader.

Bevan:

... Isobel Redmond. Christopher Pyne ... she wasn't your girl, but are you happy that she got the job in the end anyway?

Pyne:

The State Liberal Party made a decision to support Isobel last week, and I'm delighted that they have resolved the Leadership issue, which as we all know was ongoing for some time ... I think Isobel herself said that they spent a couple of months in limbo, but now that they've chosen Isobel I think she'll be a sensational Liberal Leader and put real pressure on the Rann Government, which I think we'd all like to see the Rann Government held accountable for their failures ... it's very important that Opposition be effective, otherwise Government can get sleek and fat and dangerous.

Abraham:

She's already brought in, or John Burston, has brought in Tony O'Leary, who was well really the maestro for John Howard for so many years as a media advisor and back room operator, to provide some, well some would say, some much needed media advice.

Pyne:

... Tony O'Leary is a very experienced political hand ... as you know he served John Howard as his media advisor for 11.5 years in Government and even more years before that in Opposition.

Abraham:

... don't you think it's a bit funny, Chris Pyne, that a leader who said her great strength was she's not media Mike ... doesn't believe in spin ... what you see is what you get is bringing in one of the best spin doctors in the nation?

Pyne:

... I wouldn't describe Tony O'Leary that way. I would describe him as a professional political staffer who is responsible for media ... getting our message out to the public through the media is the only way to do so ... if you don't do that effectively ... you are struggling, whether you're a Federal MP or a State MP ... therefore it's important to have good media people doing that work for you. I noticed the Rann Government is paying their media people and Chiefs of Staff almost as much money I think probably more than Federal Members of Parliament get paid ... they're obviously think that they're very valuable.

Bevan:

Christopher Schacht, former Senator and former ALP State Secretary, your take on the new Leader?

Schacht:

Well as I said last week if I was in the Liberal Party the highest risk choice to make would be Isobel Redmond, but was probably the best choice in the circumstances of which the Liberal Party faced in the bizarre episodes of the last two or three weeks ... they made that choice. Isobel will still be a high risk, cause she's had no previous profile or experience, and in any ways she is an empty blackboard, but that gives her an opportunity to make the mark the way she wants it ... it will be interesting to see how she performs. She could, to quote Paul Keating in describing, I think Bronwyn Bishop once, she goes up like a sky rocket in the sky, but fell back to earth as a burnt stick and so that's the risk of the Liberal Party. She could be a great sky rocket, but ... you don't know ... for political aficionados it will be quite interesting to see how this high risk choice, but in my view, as I said last week, probably only choice they could make, performs.

Bevan:

Christopher Pyne ... there was some bad feeling in some quarters of the State Liberal Party over your intervention in the Leadership battle. Would you like to respond to that? How much of a role did you play, and will you butt out now that the issue's been resolved by the Party?

Pyne:

Well I didn't play any role at all in the State Liberal Party Leadership decision. That is a matter for the State Liberal Party, and they're very distinct from the Federal Liberal Party. All I said on this program a couple of weeks ago is that I think all Liberals around the State wanted them to resolve their differences and to make sure that, I think I actually said it would be inconceivable for them to go into another week not having resolved it. So they did resolve it, but I didn't make any phone calls, I didn't get involved in it at all.

Abraham:

You probably didn't need to after that ... I bet you got some phone calls

Pyne:

... I supported Martin Hamilton-Smith very strongly when he was the Leader and to become the Leader. I think he did a great job and I think it's very sad that his Leadership ended the way that it did. They've now chosen a new leader in Isobel Redmond, and I think she'll do a terrific job. I'll do what I can to assist her, but the Federal Liberal Party and the State Liberal Party are very distinct entities ... they have to do what they think is right for winning their election next year and as I say, getting rid of a very mediocre State Labor Government but I didn't need to get involved. It was nothing to do with me, but I think I just spoke common sense that was being reflected by Liberal voters and members across the State, which was that they wanted the Party to make sure that they resolved it and got on with the job, and they are doing that so good luck to them.

Bevan:

Christopher Pyne, do you think we could have an early Federal election?

Pyne:

No I don't. The Rudd Government keeps talking about early elections because they want to keep the media sort of off-balance about all of their failings and their policy and their (unclear) policy ability but the truth is an election is not due until the end of next year in 2010. That's when it should be held.  I think it would be a very brave Prime Minister to go to an early election. The public in Australia hate early elections, they see them for what they are - a grab for power. They know that Prime Ministers sit there hoping that they can call an election when they think they've got their best chance of winning, and they don't like that.  I think fixed terms at the State level have been a success from the public's point of view. They know when the elections are going to be. Governments haven't got that ability to keep people like a cat on a hot tin roof the whole time ... but if Mr Rudd wants to have an election good luck to him. We'll fight it and the economy and debt and deficit will be the centrepiece of the election campaign.

Abraham:

Chris Schacht ...?

Schacht:

... the one final comment I wish to make about the situation Isobel Redmond faces. It's now, I think 15 years since Mike Rann became Leader of the Labor Party, and in that time the Liberal Party have had Dean Brown, John Olsen, Rob Kerrin, Iain Evans, Martin Hamilton-Smith and now Isobel Redmond as Leader and the issue I really think will be can Isobel Redmond made a presentation and a substantial political image for herself in this short period against now the longest serving Labor or Liberal Leader in Australia by a long shot. But on the Federal scene, you could hold an early election if the issue is there, for example, the Liberal Party is stupid enough to thwart the Government in the Senate forcing a Double Disillusion election. Then the people understand there is a good reason for an early election and I think that's the issue, tactically Chris Pyne and the Liberal Party will want to try and avoid, is a Double Dissolution election because it would certainly enhance the Labor ability to have a more balanced Senate without the Liberal Party almost in control.

Caller Swanny:

... Christopher Pyne, are you not by choosing to use the word sensational a few minutes ago in regard to Isobel Redmond, aren't you not at the very least by implication then saying that Martin Hamilton-Smith, who was formally regarded very highly and did a pretty good job, are you (unclear) suggesting that he was less than sensational? A bit of a rough word to use I would have thought in your context.

Pyne:

No, I think John has taken it entirely the wrong way and I think most listeners would understand that describing Isobel Redmond as sensational means that I think she'll do a sensational job. I think Martin Hamilton-Smith did a sensational job as well. I think he's a terrific bloke and I think he was a very good leader for two-and-a-half years...

Abraham:

You'd probably be praying that she wouldn't do quite as sensational a job as Martin Hamilton-Smith did ... the Party's primary vote's got a three in front of it ... the Party's in disarray and they've just had a Leadership challenge, he's facing a couple of defamation actions, he's had more apologies to Mike Rann than we've had hot dinners ... it was a sensational exit.

Pyne:

Well I don't think we want to get caught up on the one word sensational. I think Isobel Redmond will do a great job, I think Martin Hamilton-Smith was a great leader and it was unfortunate that the way his leadership has ended, I think he still has a very important contribution to make, and whether I describe them as sensational, able, terrific, great, really is neither here nor there. The point is I'm on their team and we're all on the same team, and that's the important thing.

Abraham:

Chris Schacht, you may not have caught up with this and we'll put this to Chris Pyne as well. This is totally off the line of the local Liberal leadership ... Tony Abbott, Coalition Frontbencher, is suggesting he'd like to see the 'fault' brought back into divorce. In a way where it would sit, and I don't know how this would work, but it would be sitting alongside 'no fault' divorce, the current divorce law. Whereas an infidelity and perpetual drunkenness would be a cause or a grounds, a proven grounds for divorce and I assume would then somehow affect property settlements and whatever in the court system. What do your view on that?

Schacht:

To me, to Chris Schacht, well I believe the changes that were made to the divorce laws led by Lionel Murphy way back in 1973-74 I think it were, were overwhelmingly very good for Australia and were civillised. The idea that people had to, in marriage, go to court and prove each other in evidence from infidelity and mental cruelty, drunkenness, whatever. It was not, in my view, a very civillised way to deal with it. I think those (unclear) there have been further amendments, remembering by and large that the Federal Parliament votes on constitutional power over marriage, has always voted overwhelmingly on a conscience vote and I think the Federal Parliament over the last 30 years has by and the largest kept the Murphy laws in place with some reasonable amendments. I would not support what Tony Abbott's putting up, that would go back to the unseemly business of courts hearing of where one partner would accuse another of all sorts of things and you would have to have evidence, and that would go back to the old days where private detectives would be hired to take photographs of someone as being ...

Bevan:

... unfaithful?

Schacht:

... to show infidelity and all those sort of things. Now if we want to go back to that, that is a 19^th century Victorian view, which is just dreadful. I think Tony Abbott's barking right up the wrong tree on this. Of course the law should be reviewed from time to time, but not the way he's proposing it. It is a 19^th century view that punishes people for what are human emotions, etc.

Bevan:

Christopher Pyne, what are your thoughts?

Pyne:

Well I haven't seen precisely, the context in which Tony Abbott made those comments and exactly what he said, so it's difficult for me to comment on them. I can say that, I assume he was speaking from his own personal point of view, but I have to say I haven't seen the context. The Howard Government made some important changes to child support 2 or 3 years ago. Well now probably 3 or 4 years ago in fact, where shared parental custody was assumed when children were part of a divorce, a breakup of marriage. I think that they went a long way to removing a lot of the angst in the breakup of families. As a Member of Parliament for 15 years I can tell you that for the first 10 or 11 or 12, the number-one issue in our Electorate Office was the Child Support Agency and family breakdown. In the last 3 or 4 years that has fallen away completely and I think the reason for that is that both parties to a marriage are feeling as if they are getting a fairer hearing. The Federal Magistracy was introduced by the Howard Government made the process faster and less expensive. While the interests of the child are still paramount, and the overwhelming requirement for the court to take into account, there is also now a rebuttal of assumption, where both parents will get equal access.

Abraham:

According to an article in The Australian, on page 3, Tony Abbott has put the issue back on the agenda by calling in a forthcoming book, because there is a view of the Family Law Act underway, has put the issue back on the agenda by calling in a forthcoming book for couples to have right of access to fault-based divorce. Apparently his proposal would ressurect adultery, cruelty and other grounds for divorce as an option for coupes to exist in parallel to the existing 'no-fault' system.

Bevan:

So if you want to go down the no-fault way you can, but if it's amicable you can do that, but if you want to make a point, or if it's not amicable, then you've got another option.

Abraham:

Yeah, whether that would become a factor in property settlement but also, more importantly, in access to children, would be an interesting issue.

Bevan:

Well we'll maybe be able to take this issue up with Tony Abbott because, Chris Pyne, you're saying you don't know a lot about this? You're staying to hear Tony Abbott's arguments?

Pyne:

Well I think you should ask Tony Abbott to come on the program and you can ask him directly. Because if he's written it in a book, it's his personal view. It's not the Liberal party's policy position...

Abraham:

It's not your personal position?

Pyne:

Certainly not my personal position, no. I think the balance is about right but it's a matter for Tony Abbott to explain on the radio, I propose.

Bevan:

Now if we could come back to Chris Schacht ... Chris Schacht, we received an email from Michael Atkinson, the Attorney-General, on Friday, and it reads - ""Dear David, normally you would be all over the story on the front page of the 'Melbourne Age' on the second of July this year entitled ""Ex-MPs on the gravy train. Taxpayers get billed for thousands of free flights"". I wondered why you didn't do it. Then I saw two faces who were granted benefit of clergy by your program. Gordon Bilney, 362 flights at $155,910 and Christopher Cleland Schacht, 214 flights at $91,199. There's always an Adelaide angle, but not if you're a mate. I wonder how many of C1's flights have been part of his lobbying business. Imagine how you would cover it if say Nick Bolkus were doing it."" Now, they're the words of the Attorney-General in an email he sent to us on Friday. I replied look, thank you very much. I wasn't aware of the 'Melbourne Age' story and we always appreciate your input. Chris Schacht, would you like to respond to the Attorney-General?

Schacht:

Well, first of all all I can say is that there was a story and I was rung by one media source while I was overseas. I pointed out to them, and I think it was quoted on that media, that I used the entitlement that is completely legal to overwhelmingly advance the cause of a non for profit organisation called the Australian Volleyball Federation. I go to events and organisations around Australia to represent the federation, to do activities for it, which they couldn't afford because the sport is not that profitable, it's barely profitable at all. I used that as my commitment to making a community contribution. It's a non for profit organisation and of which I don't get paid any money at all. I do not use, because it's not allowed under the rules and I accept those rules and support those rules, I do not use the service to go and do any other lobbying as Mr Atkinson calls it or consulting business. That is not allowed under the rules and I obey the rules very strictly.

Bevan:

What processes are in place to make sure that you're doing what you've just told our listeners?

Schacht:

... you are sent the instruction, it's made very, very clear and I followed that instruction.

Bevan:

Yeah, but how is this system policed?

Schacht:

... as far as I'm aware it's a matter of honour that you declare that you are not doing it commercially, using for commercial purposes. That's been the rule that's been there for many different Governments over many, many years and I have to say I followed it strictly. I am very ethical about that. And if it wasn't for the volleyball commitment I would hardly be making any trips at all each year, and none of them are ever, ever for commercial or lobbying purposes.

Bevan:

Well the Attorney-General went on to say Rodney Weston Sawford hasn't featured yet because I suppose he hasn't had time since his retirement to up, up and away enough. He's talking about Rod Sawford, former Federal Labor MP for Port Adelaide and he questions why this program hasn't asked Mr Sawford about employing his wife, his daughter and his son in his electorate office. Yes, his entire family, says Mr Atkinson, but you won't. Well I did ring Rod Sawford after receiving that email and I read and he said look, I'm happy for you to read that out and let people know what the Attorney-General is saying about me. He said that my wife worked part time for a couple of years in my office and then when one of my staff was going, I was going to retire, I knew that I was going to finish my term, and I said to one of my staff you are the sold bread winner in your family you need to work out what you're going to do after I leave, I suggest you find other work that's more long term ... she ended up working for Grace Portolesi, a State MP. As for my kids they helped me out during election time and following that vacancy in my office my staff supported my wife filling in that gap because there were only a couple of years left in the Sawford time at Port Adelaide.

Schacht:

Can I just say, but the way, I think it should be made clear, as it was to me, that period of time is not just for last year, it goes back to when I left Parliament in June 2002. So it's a seven year period in which I used those trips, the ability on behalf of the Australian Volleyball Federation (unclear) commercial interest I have.

Abraham:

... there's an email here ... ""what in the hell is making Michael Atkinson attack Chris Schacht in public? I saw the article in the 'Sydney Morning Herald' and Chris Schacht was queried and then, as now he follows a rule. Is M.A - Michael Atkinson looking to get another court case on his hands? Rann must be furious to hear him dragging factional crap into the media."" ...

Schacht:

All I can say, all of these figures are published about what ex-members of Parliament use under the rule that have been there for many years. I am no way embarrassed by having them published and I don't think any ex-member should be embarrassed if they obey the rules, as I do ... is it always interesting that Mick Atkinson, the Attorney-General, spends a lot of time more concerned about me being C1 on your program and he's probably listening here and not being the Attorney-General ...

Abraham:

... he's being the Attorney-General at the same time. I think the Premier manages to be the Premier while he's also filing things on Twitter ...

Pyne:

... now we know that somebody other than my mother is listening to the program ... Hello Michael!

Ends