Radio National - Drive with Waleed Aly

E&OE TRANSCRIPT Radio National - Drive with Waleed Aly Date 19 February 2014 Subject: Teacher Education Ministerial Advisory Group JONATHAN GREEN: Teacher training, it's set for an overall. Education Minister Christopher Pyne has today announced an eight-member ministerial advisory group that will report to him by the middle of the year on how education degrees at universities can better prepare new teachers, helping get a better class of teacher in our schools. He wants a focus, well, increasingly on practical aspects of teaching. He's here to tell us more. Christopher Pyne, welcome. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Thank you. JONATHAN GREEN: What do you mean by that particular point, focussing on practical aspects in teaching education? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, much of the evidence that I have seen and read over the last five years, both as Shadow Minister and now the Minister for Education, is that neither teachers emerging from university, principals who are hiring them, or indeed Year Twelve students choosing what course to pursue, are satisfied with the experience that they receive at university in terms of teacher training. And one of the main criticisms is that they are not prepared for teaching in a practical way in the classroom, that some of the courses are overly theoretical and light on, in terms of practical applications of pedagogy. So we want to get some good advice from a group of experts about the world's best practice and then apply that here in Australia, at universities, where the Commonwealth has a large say as the principle funder and principle regulator. JONATHAN GREEN: Now, one of the people you've chosen in your group is Professor Greg Craven from the Australian Catholic University. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yep. JONATHAN GREEN: This is what he said when the Gillard Government had a crack at something like this. He said he was pleased with the sensible, consultative and far-sighted approach that the Gillard Government is taking in teacher reform. Why do we keep having stabs at this and not quite getting it right? What falls through the cracks? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, Julia Gillard as the Education Minister made some quite good steps forward in terms of education that was not - building the education revolution and so on, which was largely a waste of money. But in terms of teacher training and some of her aspects to do with the curriculum, she continued some of the good work of the Howard Government. But nobody really tackled the teacher training in a holistic way at university. Now, of course, the states and territories employ the teachers and they own and operate the schools, so I can't do much about how they operate their schools or the conditions and the remuneration under which they employ teachers. But we can do something about the teacher training offerings at university, and that's what this is all about. What your listeners might be interested to hear is that even as late as last year, the OECD published a report showing that the principle determinant of a student's outcomes in Australia was the classroom in which they were placed. Not the school, but the classroom, in other words the teacher they get is the most important feature of the outcomes that they achieve. JONATHAN GREEN: What about the status and pay of teachers, is that something which might help improve their standard? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, that is a matter for the state and territory education ministers. I don't have any responsibility for that. And the difficulty is that if I allow myself to focus on things that I can't control, like remuneration and conditions for teachers, I won't focus on the things that I can control, like the universities. JONATHAN GREEN: How though, Minister, can we, you know, increase that standard? I mean, surely the whole notion of the respect in which teachers are held, the remuneration in those positions, this goes to attracting the sort of people to teaching who might be able to lift that standard, that goes to very much the sort of argument you're making. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well again, perhaps you should invite state and territory education ministers onto your program and put that to them, because that is a matter that is uniquely within their bailiwick. But other ways that the Commonwealth can help is by making teacher training an attractive course, to extend the students, to challenge them. And once they get out of the university and into the state systems, then of course it's up to the states and territories to establish career paths for them, to remunerate them on the basis of merit rather than length of service. I would very much encourage my state and territory ministers to look at the industrial relations structures that surround the teaching profession. Because I agree with you, that would make a big difference to the people who want to do teaching. JONATHAN GREEN: Are those structures within schools an impediment to the quality of teaching? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I think they make the teaching profession archaic in terms of the way it is remunerated and the conditions under which they operate. But again, that's a matter for state and territory ministers to address. What I want to address is making the courses challenging, interesting and practical, so that when teachers get out into the workforce they don't feel at a loss, as often they do, in terms of how to impart knowledge to our young impressionable minds. JONATHAN GREEN: It seems remarkable, I mean, you seem to have the impression, and this seems to be aimed very much at this idea that teachers are not being taught how to teach. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, that is the evidence that I have gathered over the last five and a half years as the Shadow Minister and the Minister, that many of the young teachers particularly in - once they get out into the teaching profession, and I'll think you'll find in surveys conducted of young teachers or new teachers, they show that in fact the teachers do feel that they haven't been prepared for the classroom. JONATHAN GREEN: It's a tough job, though, isn't it? I mean, teachers may well have the qualification and the skill to teach, but within the school, a lot of other demands, a lot of bureaucratic demands, lots of meetings, developments, there are welfare issues, professional development, all that other stuff, which can get in the way of their fundamental role which is to teach children. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I agree with you. It's one of the reasons why the Government wants to reduce red tape, regulation and bureaucracy in the education system, and we're working to do just that. We will bring a bill to the Parliament this year to reduce the heavy bureaucratic oversight of the government and non-government systems from the Commonwealth, to do just what you suggest, free up the teachers for more time for teaching, rather than responding to requirements for more information from governments. JONATHAN GREEN: You've also said, Christopher Pyne, that you have concerns that teacher training can be overly ideological, overly faddish. What do you mean by that? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I won't have words put in my mouth. I haven't said that it's ideological, I've said that there are - there is evidence that some of the teaching in universities is faddish, and I think that is a fair criticism. Some of the standards of some of these courses are such that very few people ever fail them, and I... JONATHAN GREEN: Faddish in what way? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, some of these courses are training teachers in ways that I don't think establish an orthodoxy around things like history, maths, science and English, which I think parents expect teachers to be able to impart that knowledge to students in a reasonably traditional way because they are the basics. JONATHAN GREEN: What's an appropriate orthodoxy around the teaching of maths, science, literacy? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, phonics, for example, in English is a traditional method of teaching which has been proven and has gone out of fashion, and I hope it will come back into fashion. It was replaced by whole language learning and critical literacy, and we now are ranked twenty-seventh in the world in terms of our literacy outcomes, which is a - not a very good position for a first world country like Australia. JONATHAN GREEN: Christopher Pyne, thanks for your time. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Pleasure. JONATHAN GREEN: Christopher Pyne is the Federal Minister for Education announcing today an eight-member ministerial advisory group which is going to report to him on how education degrees might better prepare new teachers. Ends