Interview with Patricia Karvelas, Radio National, Breakfast

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Australia is urging China to use its influence over North Korea to ease regional tensions. That’s amid reports Pyongyang will defy a show of force by the United States and carry out another nuclear or ballistic missiles test on the weekend. The brinkmanship in north Asia comes as the US and Russia face off over another global security flash point, Syria.

Australia, like the rest of the world, is keenly interested in the outcomes in both Moscow and the Korean peninsula of course. The Defence Industry Minister Christopher Pyne was in Washington last week where he held talks on the Australia-US Alliance with the Defense Secretary James Mattis.

Minister Pyne, good morning and welcome to RN Breakfast.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning Patricia. It’s nice to join you again.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: In the past few days we’ve seen both the US and North Korea muscling up. Donald Trump has tweeted that Pyongyang, and I quote, is looking for trouble and he is prepared to solve the problem. The regime in North Korea has responded by saying that it will react to any mode of war desired by the US. How concerned is the Turnbull Government that this could lead to armed conflict?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We’re very concerned, Patricia, because the North Korean regime is much more unpredictable than almost any of the other hot spots in the world and they have significant military capability. The entire economy of the hermit kingdom is directed towards military build-up as opposed to feeding and looking after its people. As a consequence they have the capacity to do a great deal of damage to their neighbours. They can’t yet reach Australia or the continental United States with the missiles that they have, but they are developing missiles that they would like to be able to use to reach countries like Australia and the United States. And the United States is taking the lead, as they should, in firmly reminding North Korea that they need to play in the world as reasonable international citizens and we hope that that will have the desired impact and we hope that China will play their role as a responsible world power with the most influence over that particular regime.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Of course. But how far should Donald Trump push this show of force? Because there are dangers here.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well of course there are, and President Trump and Secretary Mattis and Secretary Tillerson – their foreign secretary – are all, I’m sure, working to ensure that there is no military action in North Korea or north Asia. But it’s very important that North Korea understands that it can’t continue to be bellicose about its role in north Asia and President Trump is sending a very clear message. And as we’ve seen in Syria in recent times, he matches his rhetoric with action when that’s required. Now at this stage North Korea hasn’t obviously attacked South Korea or any of the other countries in its area but it has continued to test missiles and is developing missiles that could reach Australia or the US. So it’s a very significant, complicated and important part of our national diplomacy.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The US President Donald Trump is not ruling anything out. Won’t North Korea’s leader Kim Jong-un only be stopped when his test sites are knocked out altogether? Isn’t that what it will take to finally denuclearise the Korean peninsula?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well so far, Patricia, North Korea has done a lot of sabre rattling, but not yet moved to the next step and obviously that’s very important to avoid. China plays a very significant role in this because North Korea’s really only significant friend in the world is China. And China, of course, saved North Korea in the early 1950s in the Korean War and since that time has maintained a very close relationship with Pyongyang. So Beijing bears the greatest responsibility for ensuring that North Korea doesn’t make any missteps. And from listening to the news out of China overnight, it appears that they are stepping up to that role and that’s a very significant development.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: How seriously is the Government taking that warning from the acting US ambassador James Carouso that North Korea would have the capacity to strike Australia – and also the US west coast – with nuclear missiles within two years? Has that threat been verified?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well if the United States says so because it’s true. The United States doesn’t make things up in this area of diplomacy and military, they don’t simply make wild, florid statements. North Korea has been developing the kinds of missiles that could reach continental US and Australia at some point in time. Of course the missiles they have now can reach Japan and South Korea which are allies of ours. So it is a very delicate time but there are very respected foreign experts who say that North Korea will step away from the brink because they’ve done that many times before and that’s obviously what we would like to see occur.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: If you’re just tuning in this is RN Breakfast. I’m Patricia Karvelas and my guest this morning is the Defence Industry Minister, Christopher Pyne, who was in Washington last week. Chinese President Xi Jinping has telephoned Donald Trump, he has urged the President to seek a peaceful solution. Beijing has insisted that all parties refrain from irresponsible actions. Has China emerged as the voice of reason in this conflict and what would that say about the New World Order?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I wouldn’t go that far. China has the primary responsibility for ensuring that North Korea behaves as a decent international citizen. Admittedly they’re coming off a low base but, as far as possible, China needs to make sure that North Korea acts within the bounds of reasonableness and therefore China’s statements are significant. They’re a very significant message to Kim Jong-un that China would not back any rogue behaviour from the North Korean regime and they are supportive of the United States. President Xi met with President Trump last week - in fact when I was in the United States and it’s a very clear signal that China wants to work with the United States in a sensible and equal partnership to maintain the rules-based international order as opposed to seek pre-eminence in it.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Christopher Pyne, the other global Tinderbox is Syria as certainly we’ve been covering for the last couple of weeks reaching a new peak really. Australia is keenly interested in the outcome of the meeting overnight in Moscow between the US Secretary of State, Rex Tillerson and Russia’s President Vladimir Putin, the talks were particularly frosty. The Russian President says the level of trust between the two nations has deteriorated. What is it going to take to get those relations back on an even keel?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well Russia is, of course, strongly backing the Assad regime in Syria and the allied countries – led by the United States and with Australia having the second largest military presence in that part of the world amongst allied countries – would like to see a peaceful Syria that is not in civil war and a new regime that has a political settlement. Now that is a difficult task but it’s something that I believe we will achieve. We’re moving slowly but surely to eliminate the threat of Daesh and of course we’ve made significant military gains with the Iraqi forces on the ground to bring that about.

The Russians have an important part to play in the next transition in Syria. Of course they’ve had their long standing interest in the Middle East that go back hundreds of years. They regard themselves a significant player. It’s unfortunate that they sometimes back the wrong regime and I believe they have in this case, but in terms of international diplomacy one has to work with what one has and Russia has a significant role to play in terms of the Assad regime and I think it’s a very positive sign that Rex Tillerson and Vladimir Putin were talking overnight. It shows that in spite of the public statements about the relationship, Russia and the United States is still quite capable of sitting down and talking to each other about it.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Now today there’s a meeting of the budget razor gang – housing will be discussed. Has the Prime Minister now killed off the notion of using superannuation to help first home buyers put together a deposit?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well we don’t have a policy to allow superannuation to be used for housing …

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well many of your ministers have been on the record pushing for it.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, the budget process is the budget process. It’s something that happens behind closed doors and then on Budget night the Government’s Budget is revealed to the public …

PATRICIA KARVELAS: I am wildly aware of how it works …

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: [Laughs] I’m sure you are.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: … but everyone has been on the record- I mean this has been played out publicly, Christopher Pyne, and you know it. What’s your view – should super go towards first homebuyers owning their first home?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well Patricia, it’s a great pity that colleagues run these debates publicly, whether they attach their name to them which I think is much more respectable or do so anonymously. The budget process should be managed behind closed doors and on Budget night it should be revealed to the people. That is the process and I know you understand it well.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Do you think the Prime Minister has killed it off?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: The Prime Minister has restated our policy which is that there is no- we have no policy to allow superannuation to be used for housing. Superannuation has a particular role. It is a retirement income. It is the envy- our superannuation system is the envy of the world and those people who seek to fiddle with it are putting that at risk. And there is no evidence to suggest that if superannuation was able to be used for housing, that that would somehow bring house prices down. There is evidence on the other side of the ledger which suggest that all that would happen in fact was that house prices would continue to go up and the person selling the house would simply take that person’s super and increase house prices.

So those people who want to have these debates in public they need to understand they are better held behind closed doors.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Thank you so much for your time, Christopher Pyne.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It’s always a pleasure, Patricia.