ABC 891

E&OE TRANSCRIPT 891 ABC ADELAIDE with MATTHEW ABRAHAM and DAVID BEVAN 18 June 2014 MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Mark Butler is Labor MP for Port Adelaide, and speaks for the Opposition, of the Shorten camp, on environment and climate change. Welcome to the program, Mark Butler. MARK BUTLER: Good morning. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: And Chris Pyne, Liberal MP for Sturt, and Education Minister in the Abbott team, in the Abbott Government. Chris Pyne, welcome to the programme. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning, gentlemen. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: I think you would both regard five degrees is quite balmy, would you not, this morning, from Canberra? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yes. Well, I would be probably sun-tanning in five degrees. There is a pea soup fog over here. I’m just thinking of the sugar hit we would be getting from that Uruguay caramel spread we had [indistinct]. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Yes. Well, now, Graham (*) from Mount Terrible’s legs have been pushed out of my mind and replaced by Christopher Pyne sunbaking in Canberra. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: In minus degrees. But if it was five degrees, of course, then, I would be out there. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Yes. Exactly. Now, Chris Pyne, the State Labor Party, the Weatherill Government, is publically raging against the Federal Budget, and organising bus-ins, and love-ins, and delegations to Canberra. I notice in the Fin Review, though, that they are cherry-picking the bits they like. And the headline is SA Labor to Back Coalition on Funding. This was a story by Tim Dodd yesterday. South Australia’s Labor Government has split from Federal Labor and quietly endorsed a key part of the Abbott Government’s higher education reforms, funding private colleges and TAFEs to provide higher education courses. Do you regard that as a big win? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, it is a pretty substantial move for State Labor. And I’m pleased that they’ve done it. It’s perfectly sensible, though. We are, in our higher education reforms, expanding the Commonwealth subsidies for students to non-university higher education providers. And that will benefit TAFEs, for example, as well as other private providers. And I’m very glad that Gail Gago has recognised that, and supports it. And we’re also lifting the cap – removing the cap – on courses, like diplomas and associate degrees, that typically are used as pathways by low-socioeconomic status young people and first generation university-goers, which will help TAFEs and other private providers in Adelaide. And we are an education city. So... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: [Interrupts] But do you think [indistinct]... CHRISTOPHER PYNE: [Interrupts] Gail Gago has seen the benefit of that. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: The South Australian TAFE system, if you talk privately to insiders, is a mess. They’re abandoning projects that help low income and low-socioeconomic children to get a pathway into higher education; that they’ve just been slashing and burning. So, are they equipped at all to take up what would seem to be quite a big challenge? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, that is a matter for the State Labor Government, who own and operate the TAFEs. Now, they have made cuts to TAFE. And that, of course, is one of the reasons why the TAFEs are downsizing, if you like. And, I guess, Gail Gago likes the look of our higher education reforms, because they will be a shot in the arm for TAFEs and non-university higher education providers in an education city like Adelaide. So, while State Labor are removing funding, she does see the benefits that will flow out to South Australia. And I hope that that will rub off on Federal Labor. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Mark Butler, while we see these Labor – you know, the State Labor Government raging against the budget – this is interesting – they’re quite happy to cherry-pick the bits they like. MARK BUTLER: Well, I think that Christopher sees this as a big win speaks volumes about what a complete disaster and how universally unpopular their budget is. Grasping at the straw of this sort of minor detail that Gail Gago has talked about doesn’t change the overall view that Jay Weatherill has put about these reforms – the university reforms – that they’re a disaster. He put out a very clear statement, calling this the Americanisation of our universities that will make higher education unaffordable. And for the reason that there’s already very clear modelling that shows the scale of the cuts that are coming from Christopher Pyne to some really fundamental university degrees. Nursing by eight per cent. Engineering cut by a whopping 28 per cent by Christopher. Science degrees cut by 28 per cent. That combined with the changes to interest rates, combined with the fact that universities can now charge higher fees, along with Christopher Pyne’s cuts mean that there are going to be huge increases in the costs of higher education in South Australia. So [indistinct]... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: [Interrupts] Well, the Vice-Chancellors warmly welcomed the budget when it came out. MARK BUTLER: Well, have a look at the Vice-Chancellors’ statements once they’ve gone through the detail, because they are very different. The Vice-Chancellors of all three of the major universities in Adelaide – in South Australia – have a very different view to the one that might have been expressed in the warm afterglow of Budget Night. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Christopher Pyne, an interesting piece in The Advertiser this morning on education, saying that teaching students will be hit with a double-whammy. There are the reforms that you’ve put through, which are going to push up the cost of a degree. We can argue – we have argued about that. And people have their own opinions. But there’s a second whammy, and that is, that Jay Weatherill is going to require teachers to have Masters degrees. Do you support teachers having to have a Masters degree before they stand in front of the class? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, it’s not a question of whether I support it or not. It’s a hiring decision being made by the State Labor Government. So... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: [Interrupts] Yeah. But do you think it’s a good idea? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, I don’t think it’s a good idea. But it’s not up to me to decide the hiring policies of the South Australian Labor Government. So, Jay Weatherill has decided that rather than address the fundamental issues of the training and the quality of teachers being produced by universities, which I’m trying to do through my Teacher Education Ministerial Advisory Group, he will simply add another layer of education before he will hire teachers in the State Labor education system. Now, that’s a decision he has made. I agree it is a double-whammy to students, to then require them to do a Masters degree. But I’m not a State Labor Education Minister. I’m a Federal Liberal Education Minister. And I don’t make those decisions. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: No. But, as Federal Minister, you can see from your position what’s going on right across the nation. Do you think it’s going to turn up some anomalies here in South Australia? People, perhaps, less likely to take up teaching. If you’re not going to pay them more, why would you bother to go to the expense and the time and the trouble of getting a Masters degree? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I think you make a very good point, David. And the point you’re making is that the Labor Party needs to address the industrial relations structure of teaching in South Australia, rather than simply thinking a band-aid solution is to require teachers to have a Masters degree. What I would like to see, in terms of hiring of teachers, is that people who have, say, a language degree from a university, or a science degree, or a health sciences degree, that they can use those to then add a course on top of that, or an associate degree or a diploma on top of that, and, then, be encouraged into teaching, so they can bring their broader skills to the teaching profession. But I’m waiting for my Teacher Education Ministerial Advisory Group to give me a report at the end of the year on what they think, and then I will be able to make more... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: [Interrupts] Okay. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Hard and fast decisions about that in 2015. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Mark Butler, do you think we will get better teachers if they’ve got a Masters degree? MARK BUTLER: Well, I think that remains to be seen. And I think the fact that a jurisdiction like South Australia is trying this is a really good thing. We know that there are jurisdictions overseas that require post-graduate qualifications, and get very good student outcomes. I think we all agree that attracting the best possible young people to the teaching possession is what we want to do. And it will be good to see whether this works for South Australia. And if it does I suspect it will be picked up [indistinct]... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Well, if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. Doesn’t worry about it. DAVID BEVAN: He just racked up... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: [Interrupts] Some poor kid is going to rack up another, what, $50,000 worth of debt? But don’t worry about it. MARK BUTLER: Well, that’s a very good argument for just continuing to do things the way we’ve always done them. But I think the idea that you can look and be brave [indistinct]... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: But if you’re not going to pay them more, why would you do it? MARK BUTLER: Well, the question of pay, I just don’t know where the State Government and Teachers Union [indistinct] on that [indistinct]... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: [Interrupts] Okay. But, as somebody who... MARK BUTLER: [Interrupts] [indistinct] years away. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Somebody who has been involved in industrial relations most of his working life – you used to run a large union – can you see any sense in requiring people to get a Masters degree if you’re not going to give them an increase in pay? MARK BUTLER: Well, that is a matter for the employer and for the union. So, I can tell you... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: [Interrupts] Yes. But I’m asking your opinion. What do you think? MARK BUTLER: When we lifted qualifications for child-care workers, a wage increase went along with it. So, I imagine that’s a discussion between now and 2020, which is when, I think... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: [Interrupts] But hasn’t that... MARK BUTLER: The State Government wants to introduce this, that will happen. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: But hasn’t that also put an enormous amount of strain on the child care industry? MARK BUTLER: Well, at the end of the day, if you want child care workers working in that sector with professional qualifications, you need to pay them a wage that reflects those qualifications. We had this argument in relation [indistinct]... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Which means Jay Weatherill is going to have to pay teachers more if he expects them to take on a Masters degree. MARK BUTLER: We had [indistinct] in the late 1980s, when we professionalised nursing, as well. I mean, at the end of the day, if you want the best qualified people, the best young people attracted to a profession, like nursing, like child care, like education, like teaching, then, you need to get that balance right between pay and qualifications. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: You’re listening to Mark Butler. He’s a Labor MP for Port Adelaide. He talks about environment and climate change for the Shorten Opposition. And Chris Pyne, part of the Abbott Government’s front bench, Liberal MP for Sturt and Education Minister. Here on 891 ABC Adelaide, where it has just gone a quarter to nine. Matthew Abraham and David Bevan with me. Chris Pyne, the latest Newspoll, one headline had that Tony Abbott, your leader, was in Julia Gillard territory now, in terms of unpopularity; the dissatisfaction rating of 61 per cent. At what point does your party start to panic about things like that? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, we have just passed the nine-month mark of this new government. So, if you like, we’re sort of nearing the end of a first quarter of the football match. There’s still three quarters to go. And we are getting on with doing the things that we said we would do [indistinct]... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Are you behind at the end of the first quarter? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, that Newspoll would indicate we’re marginally behind. But I think Labor are probably quite surprised that we are gaining in the Newspoll. And the most important aspect out of that Newspoll was that Bill Shorten’s unpopularity continues to rise when, if you listen to some of the media and read some of the press, you would think we were a tremendously unpopular government. But I think people understand... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: [Interrupts] [indistinct] continue your analogy – actually, most people have left the stadium. They don’t like either of the teams playing. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No. I think they will stay past the first quarter. But I think the truth is that people understand what we are trying to achieve, which is to fix the mess that Labor left us. Now, there are individual aspects of the Budget that people do not like. But I think they get the aim of the government is to live within our means, and to start to repair the profligate spending that Labor engaged in for six years. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Mark Butler, do you concede the point, and that is, that people have left the stadium? If Tony Abbott is so unpopular – 61 per cent dissatisfaction rating – why is the Coalition closing the gap again on you? And that is the state of the two-party-preferred vote; it is getting closer, not wider. MARK BUTLER: Well, it changed by one per cent, which is well within the margin of error. I mean, there will be more than a hundred of these polls between now and the next election. And I just don’t think they’re worth much time in commentary like this. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Yes, you do. MARK BUTLER: I don’t. I honestly don’t [indistinct]... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: [Interrupts] No [indistinct] talk about it. You... MARK BUTLER: [Interrupts] [indistinct] very good Newspoll for us. I mean, we’re ahead in the 2PP; Bill Shorten is ahead again for the third time in a row as better Prime Minister [indistinct] extraordinary [instinct]... MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Sorry. I thought you weren’t paying much attention to them. You see them to have a... MARK BUTLER: Well [indistinct]. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: You seem to have a very detailed knowledge of something you don’t think is important [indistinct] DAVID BEVAN: [indistinct] memorised the numbers. MARK BUTLER: Given it’s your programme, after all, gentlemen. But 61 per cent [indistinct]... CHRISTOPHER PYNE: [Interrupts] [indistinct] caught out, Mr Butler. MARK BUTLER: 61 per cent is the most extraordinary level of dissatisfaction eight months into a Prime Ministership [indistinct]... CHRISTOPHER PYNE: That’s the third [indistinct] MARK BUTLER: [indistinct] Well, I happen to have it in front of me. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: You’re breaking it down month by month. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Mark Butler, are you blushing? MARK BUTLER: I am a bit. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Are these your talking points... MARK BUTLER: [Interrupts] turned up. And I’m still thinking about the caramel spread. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Yes. Okay. DAVID BEVAN: Gentlemen, thank you. MATTHEW ABRAHAM: The only poll that matters is on Election Day, plus the 100 polls that happen before then. Mark Butler, thank you, Labor MP for Port Adelaide. He’s Opposition climate change spokesman. And Chris Pyne is the Education Minister and Liberal MP for the seat of Sturt. [ENDS]