ABC 891

SUBJECTS: Childcare review

E&OE……………

Matthew Abraham: Kate Ellis, we’ve discussed with you and with Chris Pyne the proposal I think by Tony Abbott to at least – they should have a look at whether there should be some study into whether they should have a subsidy for nannies as opposed to just childcare.  So nannies at home for want of a better word does conjure up images of Mary Poppins.  I notice one poll; I think it’s the essential poll showing it’s quite a popular proposal despite how it’s being painted by you and others. 

Hon Kate Ellis MP: Well I think that we just need to be realistic about the fact that, when you're talking about offering more services out of the same pot of money, that means some of the existing services need to be cut and I think that it's probably a much more popular proposal now than once it's become clear who the families who are getting their assistance cut to fund this new measure because the Opposition have been very clear, and Tony Abbott said it with his own words, that there would not be new funding for this, it would come from within the existing funding envelope.

Abraham: By means testing maybe higher income families who get the childcare?

Ellis: Well actually they've ruled that out which means the only option there is the childcare benefit which goes to lower income families to help them with the costs of their existing childcare services.

Abraham: If you had to fund it though, let's say it was your idea and it's not, but if it was your idea and you had to fund it and keep those existing services you'd be able to do that wouldn’t you?  You'd find some money somewhere?

Ellis: Well, look we're concentrating on returning the budget to surplus.  We've made that clear.  We're making tough decisions.  We're not talking about $2 billion proposals without talking about where the funding is coming from.  That's the reality of this debate.

Abraham: Chris Pyne, how is all this going over in the Liberal party room?  Some of it apparently comes as a bit of a surprise to your backbenchers?

Hon Christopher Pyne MP: Well it's very popular, Matthew in the Liberal Party party room and it's very popular amongst women who have different kinds of childcare arrangements.  The sadness is that Penny Wong, Kate Ellis and Julia Gillard have been left like three shags on a rock on this issue.  The ACTU, the Nurses' Union, Joe de Bruyn, the sex discrimination commissioner, have all come out in favour of the Productivity Commission examining more flexible ways of delivering childcare and that's all that Tony Abbott has said.  This $2 billion Kate Ellis has just pulled out of the air is a meaningless figure and Kate…

Abraham:  Well do you have a figure before you announce something?

Pyne: Well we've asked the Productivity Commission - or we're going to ask the Productivity Commission, if we are fortunate to be elected, to investigate whether we are delivering childcare in the best way possible in Australia, given there are so many families that have flexible arrangements.  Shift workers, people who use nannies, people who use informal childcare, family support, et cetera.  Why should the only childcare that's available be supported by the Government that is childcare in a childcare centre when so many women use different kinds of childcare?

Ellis: Well that's not actually the case at the moment.  We fund a variety of means of childcare from long day care to family day care in people's homes to - indeed in-home care for those people who may be shift workers, who may be in areas where there aren't other forms of approved care, but the reality is you've got to be upfront with the Australian community and it's all very good to say we should have a discussion or we should have a review, but ultimately you've actually got to stump up and deliver and what you're talking about cannot be delivered.  It cannot be delivered within existing resources and it cannot be delivered.  The people that you quoted were not supporting this plan in its current form.  Many of them were saying you need regulations, you need qualifications…

Abraham: Well, they like the idea though.  They like the idea.  Do you like the idea?  I mean, let's say in a perfect world, do you like the idea of rather than having largely institutionalised care for children you could have a lot more home care?

Ellis:  Look I think that we need to recognise that the reason we are spending almost $21 billion over the next four years in this sector is not just about workforce participation, it’s also because we now have all the evidence that shows how important early education is.  That’s why the approved care that we fund now has an educational basis and is run by professionals.  So there is a lot of work to do before you can even contemplate this sort of measure and it is an undeveloped thought-bubble and it may be popular in that forum but you’ve got to actually talk about where’s the money coming from, and who are you cutting and I’m not going to stand by and let those families lose their childcare benefits.

Abraham:  Was that a thought bubble like remember when Julia Gillard came up with the idea of Medicare Gold?

Ellis:  Well no I think that was actually a costed policy that was worked through.

Abraham:  And abandoned pretty quickly.

Pyne:  And dumped.  It was a dumped policy.

Ellis:  I don’t think it’s fair to do a comparison of a costed policy who had been worked through with stakeholders, that was developed, that was in place with we think this might be an OK idea, we might get someone to review it.  Keeping in mind, let’s just be clear, the last time the Productivity Commission did a report into childcare it took them almost three years to report back.

Pyne:  That’s why it’s a big job.

Ellis:  So rather than get excited about Tony Abbott is apparently going to fund nannies, he doesn’t have the funding, he doesn’t have the report, he doesn’t have the work under way.  This is a pipe dream, it’s unrealistic and you should be honest with Australian families about that.

Pyne:  Matthew, I think I should have a chance at a short rebuttal.  I think what really happened hear is Kate Ellis, Penny Wong and Julia Gillard rushed out to attack Tony Abbott’s idea.  They’re obsessed with hating and putting down Tony Abbott.  Now, the Government has said no to every idea Tony Abbott’s come out with.  They are relentlessly negative about Tony Abbott because their only strategy to win the next election…

Ellis:  What’s the idea?  To have an Inquiry?  Is that the idea?

Pyne:  Their only strategy is to run-down Tony Abbott with their relentless negativity because they know at the next election they don’t have anything to go to the people on of any substance other than new taxes which the people hate.

Ellis:  Christopher, I would say that our strategy is to put facts on the table.  Unlike you who told the listeners of this program that current childcare services are already means tested and assets tested when these are not.

Pyne:  Why won’t you rule out means testing the childcare rebate?

Ellis:  Well as I’ve said, have a look at our record.  Have a look at what we’ve done.

Pyne:  Well why won’t you rule it out?

Ellis:  Well as you know full well, in your experience as a Minister, you can’t actually rule anything in or out when you’re in the middle of Budget negotiations.

Pyne:  Of course you can!

Ellis:  Oh Christopher don’t be ridiculous.

Abraham:  It’s usually a good idea to wait for the Budget I think you’d know that from your experience.  Chris Pyne, do you concede you were wrong on that point about the rebate?

Pyne:  Well Matthew, I’ve never held myself out as an expert on all the intricacies of childcare rebates and benefits.  My wife and I don’t have any childcare rebate or benefits so we haven’t been down that track.  The point here is, is Kate Ellis going to rule out childcare, means tests of the childcare rebate or is she in negotiations with the Treasurer, as she just said, negotiations with the Treasurer about doing just that.  She said on your program this morning that she was in negotiations right now about the childcare rebate.

Ellis:  I didn’t say that.  Don’t be ridiculous, Christopher.  Stop scaring people.

Abraham:  OK so no discussions have taken place?  That has been ruled out?

Ellis:  No what I said is I’m not playing the Rule In Rule Out Game.  No Minister is going to play that about this measure or about any other measure.  You could tell me am I going to give a million dollars to every person in the community and my response to you would have to be I can’t rule that out at the moment.  Now that’s ludicrous.  This is the game you’re playing.

Pyne:  Well I can rule it out.  I can rule it out.

Ellis:  Well that’s because you’re in opposition.  I hope that you can keep ruling it out for many many years.

Pyne:  The Opposition won’t be means-testing the child care rebate.   The Government simply won’t rule that out.

Ellis:  So will they be cutting the Childcare Benefit to pay for nanny subsidies?

Pyne: We’re going to ask the Productivity Commission…

Ellis:  OK so you won’t rule-out cutting the childcare benefit?

Pyne: A proper thorough study of the flexibility that currently pertains in childcare is our current policy.

Abraham:  OK Christopher Pyne, Liberal MP for Sturt, thank you.

Pyne: It’s a pleasure.

ENDS