ABC 891

SUBJECTS: Gonski; History Curriculum E&OE................................ Presenter: Manager of Opposition Business in the House, good morning to you Christopher Pyne. Pyne: Good morning Matthew and David and Mark. Presenter: And Mark Butler, Minister for Mental Health and Aging, good morning to you Mark Butler. Butler: Good morning to all of you. Presenter: It’s a bit rough bringing your kids in, we can’t really beat you up when Isaac and Ellie are watching. Pyne: Why not? Butler: I think they will be very pleased. Pyne: Isaac and Ellie are following Mark and I’ve got some man from the Monthly following me called Erik. Presenter: Really? Pyne: Erik’s out there. Presenter: Hello Erik. Pyne: Oh there he is, disappearing behind the glass. Presenter: Why is he following you? Pyne: He’s learning how to win the marginal seats in the real world… Presenter: He’s not a candidate? Pyne: No, he writes for the Monthly. Presenter: And he’s doing a similar one with the ALP? Pyne: I assume so, well that’s right, he should be. He might learn some things about real people. Presenter: Alright, well did you get a lesson in reality yesterday when the New South Wales premier signed up to the Prime Ministers education reforms? Pyne: Well it’s not surprising that New South Wales has signed up because New South Wales were under-funding their education system for 16 years under the state Labor Government. So we compare each state, New South Wales were at the bottom of the pile in terms of funding per student, and so this does represent an improvement for New South Wales in terms of spending whereas for South Australia of course, and Western Australia it is a negative for us and Western Australia. Presenter: So Julia Gillard’s plan is a good thing for the people of New South Wales? Pyne: Well they have cut in New South Wales $1.7 billion from education in last year’s budget and you put that back in… Presenter: But is it a good thing for them? Because they can sign up and get some money. Pyne: Well it certainly improves the situation for New South Wales students on a per student basis but it doesn’t do that elsewhere in the country. Presenter: Ok, you would be voting Labor in Western Sydney on the basis of this then wouldn’t you? Pyne: No, no. No that is not what I am saying. Because of course the government has robbed Peter to pay Paul in order to get that money. So they are putting more money into school students but they are taking money from Kindergarten students, university students, apprentices and trainees. So it’s really a smoke and mirrors trick on the part of the Federal Government. Presenter: Mark Butler? Butler: Well yesterday was a great day for school students in New South Wales but I think ultimately we will see more broadly for Australia, and it was a terrible day for Christopher Pyne. For months and months now, Christopher has been out defending the status quo – the existing funding system, while every expert, every stakeholder has been saying that the system is broken. And over the last couple of weeks he has been pressuring State Premiers not to sign onto our national school improvement plan… Pyne: That is not true. Butler: …And yet now what you have is the Premier of the largest state, the fellow responsible for managing the largest state school system in the country has signed onto our plan. So... Pyne: Well one swallow does not a spring make … Butler: Well, I hope what we’re gonna say now is other states … Presenter: It’s a big swallow … Pyne: Well one swallow … Butler: There is no previous swallow in this summer … Pyne: Labor is very good at over-spruiking these kinds of things and then finding later on that they don’t work out quite so well. In Mark’s own portfolio of course we discover that at least 40% of catholic aged care homes today have said they are not going to sign onto his $1.2 billion offer. Presenter: Let’s stay on one focus at a time. Mark Butler how much of the Gonski funding is unfunded in the forward years? Butler: Well, we’ll be very clear in the budget which is only, I think, two or three weeks away how this school funding system is going to be funded. But also, you’ve seen over the last couple of weeks, the Prime Minister and the schools Minister outlined the way in which we’re going to pay for significant elements of the Gonski… Presenter: Will it be fully revenue neutral? I mean.. Butler: We have said very clearly that where there is a case for new investment and the two most significant cases are disabilities and school funding, we will pay for those new investments through structural saves not short term saves but structural saves in the Federal Budget budget. Presenter: Because there has been extra spending, hasn’t there? There have been cuts to the budget but there has been extra spending? Butler: In the area of schools are you saying? Presenter: No, in everything. Butler: Well we’ve made investments where we think there is a strong case but what we have said is where there is a case for structural new investment, as there is in school funding, an area that’s critical to the future prosperity of the country, or where there is in disabilities, an area that’s been neglected for decades, we will ensure that that new investment is off-set by structural saves in the budget. Pyne: Can I just make two quick points? The first is that this represents a cut to education across Australia. It’s a cut because they are taking $3.9 billion from last year’s MYEFO, $600 million for last year’s budget, $2.8 billion a week ago in higher education. $3.5 billion of re-directions in the national partnerships. A total of $11 billion of cuts or redirections to put in $9.4, so in fact, the Federal Government is saving $1.6 billion in education over the next six years. Presenter: Mark Butler, is that correct? Butler: Well he ran through them very quickly. Pyne: I will do it slowly if you like? Should I go through them slowly? Butler: But Christopher has referred to the $3.1 billion in MYEFO in December. This is a result of the indexation system that he has been defending for months and months… Pyne: No, no no. Butler: And indexation to schools will reduce because state systems have been cutting their education budgets. Christopher is happy to spruik the 6 per cent average on indexation over the last 10 years, which reflected the fact that state school systems like the Rann Government here had been increasing education investment but the indexation system that Christopher continues to defend reflects state investment...…. Pyne: …. delivered 8% indexation … Butler: …. Yes it has… Presenter: … let’s get back…. inaudible, everyone talking Pyne: Let’s get our facts right. The $3.9 billion in MYEFO, $340 million of that was the reduction in indexation so in fact $3.6 billion were cuts to apprentices, traineeships, computers in schools; that is the fact. Presenter: Before we leave.. Butler: No, no. What Christopher is talking about is national partnership agreements that were put in place to hold the fort, hold the fort while we introduced a funding system. Pyne: …making things up as you go along. Butler: Lower SES partnerships, the literacy and numeracy partnerships. Pyne: Like Julia Gillard … Butler: These national partnerships were time limited up to 2014 when we would have a new comprehensive school funding set up. They’re all rolled in…. Presenter: Before we leave the school room, Christopher Pyne was telling us the other day that he’s very worried about the “black arm” band version of history and the way that Anzac Day is pushed aside and just given equal treatment with a lot of other things like Harmony Day and NAIDOC Week. Mark Butler, do you agree? Butler: Well look, I haven’t read the history curriculum word for word but I know it was agreed by all state and territory education ministers a couple of years ago. It had been the subject of significant work by teachers and school communities and education experts and it does still does have a very strong focus on the ANZAC tradition including the events of Gallipoli and the role of ANZAC Day. I think Premier O’Farrell who was asked about this yesterday put it best. I mean ANZAC Day Presenter: Oh, he’s your favourite at the moment? Butler: He’s on our Christmas Card list, there’s no question about that but I think he struck the right note when he said ANZAC Day is still undoubtedly the most sacred day in the Australian calendar. Pyne: It’s not reflected in the curriculum. Butler: but, but, it’s important to recognise there are a range of traditions. He said, ‘you can … recognise Anzac tradition while also recognising the Indigenous history of Australia …’ Presenter: Chris Pyne. Butler: and I think that was a very sensible position for him to take. Presenter: Barry O’Farrell’s not helping out, is he? Pyne: Look, we love the fact that everybody wants to be friends with everybody. My point is that in Reception and Year 3, Anzac Day is lumped in with NAIDOC Week, Reconciliation Day, Harmony Day, Ramadan, Buddha Day, Easter, as just one of those days that is worth noting, now it’s not … Presenter: Reception? We’re talking about Reception? Pyne: Reception and Year 3, exactly. Presenter: (in high pitched voice) they’ve got a little plastic Dino the Dinosaur lunchbox. Pyne: For the first time in Year 9, in Year 9, the Anzac tradition is mentioned in the curriculum. Now my point is that Anzac Day is the first time in Australia’s history that all the states came together in one conflagration and fought as Australians together, at Gallipoli. Now, whether you liked the war or not, whether you liked the battle or not, the fact that there were thousands killed is a very bad thing, there’s no doubt about that but it’s a very important historical event in Australia’s history and it doesn’t rank alongside all of those other days in equal importance. Presenter: Shouldn’t you have it piped into maternity wards? Presenter: (laughs) I mean, Reception kids?! Pyne: You might want to make light of this … Presenter: I’m not making light of it but … Pyne: What I’m simply saying is, and I think it’s very fair, that on the eve of Anzac Day, treating Anzac Day alongside NAIDOC Week, Reconciliation Day, Harmony Day, Ramadan Day, Buddha Day and Easter doesn’t give it the importance it deserves … Presenter: Mark Butler … Butler: Just quickly, I think the characterisation that Chris makes about Anzac Day, somehow having a declining importance I think is wrong. In my lifetime Anzac Day has never been more embraced by a community. Pyne: Well why isn’t that in the curriculum? Butler: Where I’m going tomorrow, Semaphore, the Esplanade, there’s likely to be 5,000 people down there. There have been for years … Pyne: But that doesn’t address the issue. Butler: 15 or 20 years ago there were maybe 100, 200 people down there. Anzac Day is recognised by our community and I think sort of playing, I don’t want to be playing politics about this but… Pyne: But it should be in the curriculum. You’ve just avoided the issue completely. I’m not suggesting Anzac Day is less important… Presenter: I think you’ve had a fair crack. Now Ian Henschke’s got to have a say, otherwise we’ll get.. Henschke: My kids are making Anzac biscuits today out of out of school hours holiday care, so it’s on the curriculum at the out of school hours holiday care. Pyne: (inaudible) make fun of the whole thing. Presenter: No, I’m not worried about those Reception kids and their commitment to Anzac Day. Henschke: We had a book the other day called ‘Anzac Biscuits’ that’s where we get our recipe from, it’s almost like a playschool book, sold 10,000 copies. Anyway, well look, on the program this morning we’re doing something on Anzac Day ….. Presenter: Don’t pick a fight with Chris … Henschke: No, we’re doing something …. Pyne: He’s always attacking me (laughter). He was mean to me at school. (laughter) Henschke: Oh come on! I was the only one who looked after you when everyone else was beating you up (laughter). ENDS.