ABC 702 Political Forum

E&OE TRANSCRIPT Interview on ABC 702 Sydney – Political Forum 7 April 2014 SUBJECTS: WA Senate by-election; Asylum Seekers; Free Trade Agreements; Fashion Week. EMMA ALBERICI: We have Christopher Pyne, Minister for Education, he is in Melbourne. And Wendy Machin, President of the NRMA, and Rebecca Huntley, researcher with IPSOS who is currently stuck on the Harbour Bridge, she could give us a bit of a traffic report once she gets here, she will be joining us as soon as she can get off that traffic jam. So welcome, Christopher Pyne. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Emma, nice to be with you. It’s usually Richard Glover, but very pleased to have a new face, not that I can see your face, but you know what I mean. EMMA ALBERICI: Yes, indeed. And Wendy Machin, president of the NRMA here with me in Sydney. Thank you for coming in. WENDY MACHIN: It’s nice to be here. Thankyou. EMMA ALBERICI: Let’s start off, and hopefully Rebecca will join us shortly. The weekend by-election in WA, saw the Palmer United Party cement its position in Canberra winning a third seat in the Federal Senate. The Government will now have to negotiate with Clive Palmer to secure passage of its legislation. Was it a mistake for Tony Abbott and Barnaby Joyce to attack Mr Palmer in the lead up to the Western Australian vote? Christopher Pyne? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I wouldn’t say that they did attack Clive Palmer. Politics is a sport or profession that you have to take the rough with the smooth and Clive has given out plenty of rough over the years and I know him well and he is a very charming man. I get along with him very well. I wouldn’t think that anybody would describe the by-election in Western Australian Senate as being overly willing and I think Tony Abbott was pointing out last week that a vote for a minor party doesn’t guarantee stability. A vote for the Liberal Party means that the Carbon Tax and the Mining Tax would be abolished. But I am looking forward to working with Clive Palmer and his team of senators to ensure that the programme of the Government is passed through both Houses of Parliament because that’s what the people voted for last September and I think Clive Palmer will respect that I am sure that he will want to make amendments along the way, he will have his own suggestions and his own style but I think that the new senate from July the 1st is going to be a much better Senate for the country than the one that has dominated by Labor and the Greens, that reflexively voted no at every opportunity. EMMA ALBERICI: Wendy Machin, Tony Abbott ahead of this WA election said that ‘smart savvy people won’t allow themselves to be bought by Clime Palmer in Western Australia’. It turns out he was perhaps not quite right about that front. And Barnaby Joyce had said that Clive Palmer might be entertaining but impossible to govern with. Do you think that he will rue those words? WENDY MACHIN: Well I guess time will tell, but it is an election as Christopher said. You hardly expect a massive outbreak of niceness and compliments. It is a contest. And they all want to win, I mean Clive didn’t pull his punches either. He’s said some outrageous things about everybody and that’s the way it goes. I think the interesting thing will be to see how it plays out after the Senate changes next year. And you know my view, my experience, everybody knows the rule are. The major parties knows what the rules are, and quite often there will be massive fisting in public and you will find them in the Parliament having a drink together after work so it is quite different what goes on behind the scenes. I think the independents sometimes can be a bit different. They don’t have that support network of the big party. And they don’t understand sometimes what it is like to be part of the big parties, so they kind of mavericks – they are loners. Sometimes in the Parliament it can be really lonely for some of the independents and maybe the people who can best understand that and work with some of the people like Clive, not that he looks like a guy who is worried about being lonely, not the shy type at all. So it will be interesting to watch. EMMA ALBERICI: What do you think, Rebecca Huntly? Welcome. REBECCA HUNTLEY: Thankyou. EMMA ALBERICI: You slipped in. REBECCA HUNTLEY: Sorry I am a bit late. EMMA ALBERICI: That is ok. You can give us a traffic report later. What do you think it is going to be like watching the Government having to negotiate its legislation with Clive Palmer? REBECCA HUNTLEY: Well I think given that the way Australian public feel about the two major parties is that I think that any major party is going to have to deal with the independents from now on. You know people are going to be not always going to vote for the two parties and not always going to vote for them in both houses. I think the thing that is interesting for me to listen to Australians talk about Clive Palmer to the extent they talk about any other politician is that they just respond to the idea that he is a bit different and seems to you know speak his mind. We have a bit of a history of liking politicians who perhaps for short periods of time. Pauline Hanson had a very similar kind of appeal. She seemed like she could have a beer with them, they don’t talk like politicians. The problem of course is that that they punch through to people because of that but then you also think well what their agenda underneath is. So I think that how people feel about Clive Palmer maybe be very different in terms of when he is really in power and has to start making decisions. The question is of course is how is his group going to hang together? Are they going to work, are they going to caucus effectively? And when they are really in there, I mean he may not need friends, but I think the other PUP members are going to need support of some kind. They may not get it from Clive because he might be travelling around Australia on the Clive show. EMMA ALBERICI: And Ricky Muir, the Victorian Motorists representative who seems to have struck some sort of an alliance. Christopher Pyne are you at all concerned about what kind of demands the Palmer United Party might put on the Government in return for their vote? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, I am not Emma. And most of the time since 1980 we have had a Senate that no major party controls. There was a brief period in the Howard Government towards the end from 2004-7 where the Coalition had a majority control over the Senate but in all that time since 1980 the wheels of Government haven’t come to grinding halt. Many changes have been made in our economy and in our society which has had majority support. And we have got on with the job of governing and that is exactly what we are going to do with this Senate from July the 1st. We will have the benefit though of not having the Greens and Labor continuing to block the repeal of the Carbon Tax and the Mining Tax, whilst saying one thing in one place and doing another in Canberra. And I am looking forward to that opportunity. And that’s what I have said I am looking forward to governing with the Senate that is dominated by centre-right cross-benchers. It will make a downside easier than trying to get the Greens to support our programme when they are reflexively opposed to it. EMMA ALBERICI: What do you make, Christopher Pyne, of the fact that your vote in Western Australia is down five per cent and yet the Greens vote was up six and a half percent? It is hardly a ringing endorsement for getting rid of the Carbon Tax, I would have thought? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Look, the Labor vote was down to twenty-one per cent, Emma. And it is Labor that are our main opponents and the ones that continuing to stand by the Carbon Tax and the Mining Tax. Our vote was a health forty per cent plus, above forty. And I would have expected there to have been some minor swing away to Clive Palmer party jumped by seven and a half per cent. Many of those would have been Coalition voters so that the party that has really got to hang its head today is the Labor Party which got one in five voters attracted to it in Western Australia and as returning Senator Mark Bishop has said, Labor has a lot of soul searching to do about what they stand for and about their messaging because they are getting one in five voters in Western Australia voting voting for them. EMMA ALBERICI: It is eighteen minutes to six on 702 ABC Drive. We are on the Political Forum with Christopher Pyne, Minister for Education, Wendy Machin, the resident of the NRMA and Rebecca Huntley, social researcher with IPSOS. A Free Trade Agreement is expected to be finalised later today with Japan, that’s ccrtainly the hope of the Prime Minister and the others who are on that trade mission. Australia’s biggest, second biggest, trading partner is Japan. The two leaders are also expected to announce steps to increase the defence and security relationship at a bi-lateral meeting ahead of a state dinner. Do we risk irritating China by getting too close to Tokyo and calling the Japanese our best friends in Asia? Wendy Machin? WENDY MACHIN: Well look you’d like to think that China is developing rapidly, it’s developing and becoming more sophisticated as a nation and we will see that we have many friends. We have been trade partners for a long time with Japan, it has always been important to us and it will continue to do so. That doesn’t mean I would have thought that we can’t have other friends in the region, we can’t have other trading partners in the region and China has becoming a great importance to us as well. So yeah, I would have thought that there should be a mature approach. I don’t know I can’t speak for the Chinese Government, but it is a breakthrough the agreement with Japan has been on the table for a long time so I think there is a lot of upsides for Australia. EMMA ALBERICI: Do you think there is a problem, Rebecca Huntley, in ranking our friends in Asia in saying one is a better friend than another one? Was that perhaps a miscalculation by the Prime Minister? REBECCA HUNTLEY: You can do it in the schoolyard because you can… because no media, no media is covering it, you can say ‘oh you’re my best friend’ as long as nobody is… and then you can tell somebody else your best friend and you won’t have any trouble. Look I think what is interesting about this is from the community point of view is that has been many years a discussion, quite a complex discussion, about Australia’s relationship with China. There is both a sense of both possibility about that and some anxiousness so often people will say in our groups, you know we are investing too much in that relationship and perhaps not thinking you know putting too much of our eggs in one basket is something that people often say in our discussion groups. So the idea, you know there is a broad acceptance of the idea that our future economic potential and life will be connected to Asia so that as much as we can spread that around to different countries is going to get community support, I think. And I think that some of the anxiety about Japan has faded with the older generations, not necessarily forgetting about the Second World War but it being very much being in the past. EMMA ALBERICI: Christopher Pyne, does Tony Abbott have any anxiety as he weaves his way to China at the end of this Asian trip? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No I am sure he doesn’t. I mean what he said in the past reflects the fact that Australia and Japan have a very close relationship born out of a long standing and genuine commitment to democracy and since the Second World War obviously Japan has been an enormous investor in Australia, enormous trade partner, very important to our affluence here in Australia and we want to reflect the fact that along with the United States and Japan shares many of our values for freedom and liberty. That doesn’t protract at all from our relationship with China and China and Australia’s relationship is mature enough to understand exactly what the Prime Minister is getting at. We are of course making enormous leaps forward in Asia since the end of the Rudd-Gillard Governments because we have done things like restart the Live Cattle Exports industry and treat Indonesians like adults rather than like children. And of course the Free Trade Agreements that have been secured with South Korea and hopefully very soon with Japan indicate an interest in growing our economies, whether it is South Korea’s, Japan’s or Australia’s in a way that benefits all of our people. And I think that I am hoping that down the track the same will occur with China. [station break] EMMA ALBERICI: On the political forum this afternoon we are speaking to Christopher Pyne, Minister for Education, Wendy Machin, president of the NRMA and Rebecca Huntley, researcher with IPSOS. Immigration Minister Scott Morrison has defended the Government’s refugee resettlement plans that will see people who have tried to reach Australia sent instead to other countries in the region including Papua New Guinea and Cambodia. This is the Minister on Sky News: SCOTT MORRISON [except]: And I think that it is a positive discussion whether it is in there or anywhere else in region or anywhere else in the Pacific where we are looking to broaden the number of available places where people can receive permanent resettlement within the region. So I just don’t buy into this argument which says that only first world countries are able to participate in resettlement around the world. It is about freedom for persecution, not a ticket to a first world economy. EMMA ALBERICI: Does the Minister have a point, Rebecca Huntley? REBECCA HUNTLEY: I really don’t know. It sounds extraordinarily reasonable but, look I have to say and I hate it, I really find this discussion about asylum seekers very difficult to have anymore. It is very hard to have, I think, a useful policy discussion. What he says is right, really people who are fleeing persecution should be able to be settled effectively. I wonder whether it is as effective in Papua New Guinea as it is here, there are lot more opportunities here but I have got to say I am stumped by that question, Emma, and I find this discussion about asylum seekers difficult to have. EMMA ALBERICI: What do you think, Wendy Machin? WENDY MACHIN: Well it is a difficult discussion and I suspect a lot of people are almost tuning out because it is gone on for so long. It is important, and I guess you know we have probably got to go back to basics in the sense to say what are we trying to do? I mean we are as a nation trying to give asylum to people whose lives are at risk where they are currently living. And that’s what all countries who take asylum seekers in do. Clearly we are not the only country that can. We are a wealthy and big nation so we probably have the capacity to do it better than some countries in our region but I don’t think that is to say that they shouldn’t play a part in it as well. I think the entire you know developed or developing world should play a helping hand. So you know I think he is probably making a reasonable point there, he is not saying we shouldn’t I guess what he is saying, it is interesting to see that quote put in context because that does help I just saw the take-out line you know to say that the region with a can-approach should take asylum seekers is probably not an unreasonable thing to say. EMMA ALBERICI: Christopher Pyne, what do you think about this issue in terms of the region? Are they taking their fair share? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I think everyone is making an effort to resolve the problem for asylum seekers. I think what Scott Morrison is saying is that under the Refugee Convention, asylum seekers are supposed to seek refuge in the first country that they enter after leaving their country of persecution. So therefore for asylum seekers to say that they want to come to Australia, or Canada or the United States or New Zealand, when that wasn’t the first country they entered following the fleeing of their country of persecution, is like them choosing to get to a first class country rather than genuinely seeking, fleeing persecution. So what he is saying in those circumstances is that they should be resettled in whatever countries are appropriate and wiling to resettle them and we already in Australia resettle 14,500 refugees a year which is very much at the top end of the country’s that resettle refugees along with Canada and the United States and we are certainly doing our bit and we would like help facilitate other countries to join us in a regional response to asylum seekers so that we can one, break the business model of the people smugglers but two, treat the asylum seekers as the human beings that they most definitely are and they should be treated with the respect that they deserve. EMMA ALBERICI: I guess this is the concern from some people like those at Human Rights Watch who we caught up with early in the programme who question the wisdom of sending desperate people to countries that are so poor they can’t necessarily provide them with an existence that would be commensurate with the idea of keeping them safe. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Look it is a bit of a condescending argument from Human Rights Watch. It rather suggests that Cambodia and Papua New Guinea and other countries aren’t up to resettling asylum seekers and I think that you would find that those countries would find that a bit insulting. Obviously Australia is a very affluent country, but we are doing our bit and we always support our regional neighbours in doing theirs as well. And I think that it is rather condescending of some human rights groups to somehow look down on those countries in the way that those comments would suggest. EMMA ALBERICI: Well PNG in particular we know your own Government has a travel advisory warning people not to go to PNG because it is a very violent country. Doesn’t suggest that it is the place you consider safe for Australians, so I guess the question is why would you find that a suitable and safe refuge for persecuted people? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well the Refugee Contention says that the asylum seekers should seek refuge in the first country that they come into after fleeing persecution. It doesn’t say that asylum seekers who fear persecution should choose between first world countries and for where they would like to settle. EMMA ALBERICI: But isn’t about the first country that where they land, that’s sort of what the Refugee Convention says. There is nothing about moving them somewhere else? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well the first country in which they land would be Indonesia. It wouldn’t be Australia because they are obviously landed in Indonesia and took boats from people smugglers to come to Australia. So on the basis of that logic they should remain in Indonesia. EMMA ALBERICI: But Christopher Pyne we know that the Refugee Convention doesn’t say anything about arriving, which mode of transport you use, if you arrive by boat there is nothing in Convention that says that is illegal? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No. but it says that the country that you first arrive in is the country in which you should seek refuge if you are fleeing persecution and now that isn’t Australia, obviously if they are from Indonesia. WENDY MACHIN: I mean I think it is interesting, Emma. Let’s not dance around it too much. Australia is a very desirable destination for lots of migrants because we have, you know, wonderful democracy, great health system, great education system and lots of families want to come here more for their children than themselves. So you know they are obviously attracted to Australia and I think many of them are looking for passage on some of those boats to come here versus a number of other countries as Christopher says they probably have the option of staying in Indonesia where some of them arrive from other countries but clearly they don’t want to. Why wouldn’t you want to come to Australia if you could, because it is just a wonderful place to live? EMMA ALBERICI: I don’t think there is a processing centre in Indonesia, they haven’t signed up to the Refugee Convention so I guess there is a lot of problems with that, isn’t there, Rebecca? REBECCA HUNTLEY: Yeah, no that’s right. Just because they arrive in Indonesia doesn’t meant they can actually live there and establish a life there. So it tends to be a half-way house. So unless they are prepared to then get on another boat and go to Papua New Guinea or Cambodia and I think we need to acknowledge too the ability for Cambodia to resettle refugees is different. The situation in Papua New Guinea and Cambodia are different. EMMA ALBERICI: We are coming up to five minutes to six and we might just change pace and ask you all to contribute to our earlier talkback conversation where we were discussing Fashion Week. DId you go to Fashion Week, Christopher Pyne? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, but my sister went to Fashion Week last night actually, so it is funny you should ask me about this question. She lives in Sydney you see. EMMA ALBERICI: Oh lucky her. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yes, she was with the Mercedes Box or something, whatever they call it. I have never been to a Fashion Week function. I think if I went in people would run out screaming. EMMA ALBERICI: Is that because of what you might be wearing? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Correct. REBECCA HUNTLEY: But Christopher it must be quite easy to dress as a male politician? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It is. Much easier. REBECCA HUNTLEY: You know, nice suit, nice tie, there is not much really… CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I’m not sure you are even allowed to say that any more, Rebecca. I’m not sure you are allowed to say… REBECCA HUNTLEY: Why’s that? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well because if just said it is easier for men to dress than women I am sure that some people will instantaneously take to the Twitterverse and accuse me of being a misogynist pig. REBECCA HUNTLEY: Oh come on. EMMA ALBERICI: You are just stating the obvious. It is patently true. It is much easier for men to dress. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I hope so! REBECCA HUNTLEY: It is patently true. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It is patently true. EMMA ALBERICI: You don’t have to decide whether to wear a dress or skirt or pants. WENDY MACHIN: Well I went last and I have to say Christopher you would have to lift your game, there are some very cool guys looking there waring all sorts of things including skirts. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yeah, but I don’t do cool. I do suits and conservative ties. WENDY MACHIN: We get that. REBECCA HUNTLEY: Is that parliamentary to wear a skirt as a man in the Parliament? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Look I don’t think there would be a problem with that I think that as long as you are properly covered up, I think that is the bottom line in the Parliament. No one has yet to come in Speedos. Don Dustan did come in pink shorts once when he was the Premier of South Australia but I think that killed it for all time for everybody else. EMMA ALBERICI: I bet Tony Abbott has been inclined to keep his bike shorts after he gets into the office? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I doubt it. I doubt it very much. He is very conservative man. EMMA ALBERICI: Tell us about an article of clothing or fashion in your wardrobe Christopher Pyne that could be an accessory that you just can’t let go of even though you know you probably shouldn’t be seen in public wearing it? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well where do I begin? EMMA ALBERICI: I’m talking about the things you don’t wear in public. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I am a bit of a (inaudible) you see, so I collect and keep, I have got all sorts of shocking things that should have been given away a long time ago. One of my worst I think is an old first (inaudible) jacket with shoulder pads and every time I go and give it to St Vincent de Pauls, I think you never know shoulder pads might come back…I mean they were in in the 80’s. REBECCA HUNTLEY: You’ve got hoarding tendencies that is very worrying. That is a… CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I have got bad hoarding tendencies. I have got old Towleing dressing gowns from the 1980’s, my father’s kimonos from the Korean War which I have never of course worn but I still keep. Old academic gowns belonging to my grandfather… WENDY MACHIN: Wow. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I have a big problem and my wife stays away from it. REBECCA HUNTLEY: I am the exact opposite. I go through my wardrobe every six months and kind of shed it. My problem is that I throw things to that shouldn’t be thrown one and when my husband and I first got married he had this disgusting tatty old kind of hat which I kind of threw out. And then he said ‘oh I went to the bottom, I went to the bottom of the Grand Canyon and back with that, that hat is the most important hat’ … WENDY MACHIN: You never throw your husband’s stuff out. REBECCA HUNTLEY: I learnt very early and now I never throw anything out. EMMA ALBERICI: You have the opposite problem of the hoarder. Too quick to chuck. REBECCA HUNTLEY: Yes, I am the culler, I am the culler, yeah. EMMA ALBERICI: What about you Wendy? WENDY MACHIN: It sounds like I am somewhere in between, I thought I was a hoarder but Christopher sets new heights in that one. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Depths. WENDY MACHIN: Depths. It is funny that we should ask this question because the stop I made before here was the dressmaker to give her a jacket that I probably have had for twenty five years just to, you know, adjust the hen, so I think it has come back into fashion so I am of the school that you know hang on to it for long enough and it might come back. But I don’t know about the big ‘80s shoulder pads… CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Shocking. WENDY MACHIN: And the other thing is, you talk to Terry Toweling and, you got to love Terry Toweling. I have got one of those shirts you know elasticated like a polo short made out of Terry Toweling, with the little nautical, a white Terry Toweling shirt, you know like we used to wear in the ‘70s. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yuck. EMMA ALBERICI: You just start articulated the looks on Rebecca’s and my face, Christopher. WENDY MACHIN: I didn’t say I wore it, I just say I have go it. I can’t bring myself to throw it out. EMMA ALBERICI: Why is it exactly that you can’t bring yourself to throw it out, that particular item away? WENDY MACHIN: It is a good question, I think because it was, I don’t even think it is mine, I think I found it in my parent’s old beach house. I think it came into the house when I was two. That shows you how old I am, it is a nice memento of happy days at the beach. That is probably the psychology behind it. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: So about twenty years ago, Wendy. WENDY MACHIN: Yeah, thanks, Christopher, really nice of you to say that. EMMA ALBERICI: Well listen it has been lovely, thank you so much Christopher Pyne, the Minister for Education, Federal Member for Sturt. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It is a pleasure EMMA ALBERICI: Wendy Machin, the President of the NRMA and Rebecca Huntley, social researcher for IPSOS. Thanks very much for coming in for our political forum. [ends]