5AA

SUBJECT: Educational funding and outcomes
 

LEON BYNER: Christopher Pyne is on the line, the Education Minister.

We're talking today about funding. Can you give a guarantee no school will be worse off?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We don't make the decisions whether they are or not.

LEON BYNER: Tony Abbott said that would be the case.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, he didn't.

LEON BYNER: I want you to hear this, Chris. Stay on the line.

[Excerpt from interview]

TONY ABBOTT: We will make sure that no school is worse off.

[End of excerpt]

LEON BYNER: Who said that? Recognise the voice? Okay. Well, after this colourful exchange the public expressed the view that it's time to get the policy right and stop the rhetoric. The Government and the Opposition went to the election on a unity ticket on the funding reforms, and now the Minister has taken steps to reinstate what was promised during the election. It's also true that the Government promised to make the new education funding more accountable and effective while keeping the dollar amount intact. There is ample room within that promise for serious further reform, and it's to be regretted that the argument about money obscured the next debate.

Accountability, better teachers, better classroom results, serious curriculum reform in areas like reading, are all things that were promised in the opposition. The minister says money alone won't make a difference, and I think he's right. And if the money simply goes into higher wages and deals like the new enterprise arrangement in South Australia, then educational outcomes will continue to slide.

So Chris Pyne, good morning. Thanks for joining us.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning, Leon.

LEON BYNER: Tell us what you're planning to do.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, happily, yesterday I was able to announce that we will put $1.2 billion more into school funding over the next four years than Labor would have if they'd been re-elected. So the money that Bill Shorten took out of education, we are putting back in. And I was also able to announce that we've got Western Australia, Queensland and the Northern Territory signed up to the national school funding model that Labor failed to do.

This means that whatever the Commonwealth does no school can be worse off. So only the states and territories, through their decisions, can affect the amount of money going to the individual schools, but the Commonwealth's contribution can only make them better off. This is good news because I want to move on to issues like phonics, teacher quality, engaging parents in the children's education and more local decision making. And too often the funding debate obscures some of the really important issues in education.

 

LEON BYNER: All right. Let's look - let's go through those one at a time. Phonics, what are you going to do about that; because at the moment you've got this combination of this whole language approach which, according to the Australian Council of Educational Research, is disengaging for about a third of the - mainly boys - educational population.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: This is true. Whole language learning has been the dominant feature of how to teach children to read for several decades in Australia. And over those several decades our literacy and our reading skills have declined in real terms and relatively towards other countries. This has been a very, very bad outcome for our students. And I know the people in the education space don't want to admit that, but that's what members of Government, that's what ministers are supposed to do, to say that there needs to be change. And we're going to change it to more orthodox teaching methods, through higher teacher quality at university and through emphasising phonics, through a fund that we promised during the election that we will set up to extend phonics across - to begin with - remote schools, and then further across all schools.

LEON BYNER: Now, when you say a more orthodox teaching method, that means you're going to change the curriculum.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, it means that we're going to pare back the child-centred learning approach that state education departments currently favour and go back to a more orthodox teaching method where children are taught knowledge and skills rather than expected to learn themselves.

LEON BYNER: How are you going to attack the teacher quality issue where, in South Australia, for example - and you'd be aware because you're a South Australian Federal Member as well as Minister. You'd be aware that the Government of this State announced recently that they're going to require that teachers have a Master's degree. Do you think that is the right way to go?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I don’t think so, Leon. The problem is that the Labor Party always thinks if you lengthen degrees, if you lengthen postgraduate qualifications, that this solves every problem. Now, I'm not against longer Masters degrees, but what I'm more interested in is the quality and the content of what our teachers are learning at university. There's been far too much evidence of teachers emerging from university and then saying, once they were in schools, that they hadn’t ever been given the practical instruction about how to teach students to read or to write or to count.

LEON BYNER: How are you going to change that? What are you going to do?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, because the Federal Government is the principal funder and regulator of universities, so, in fact, that is an area that we can affect in a very genuine way by changing the way teachers are trained at university. Lengthening the courses is a very Labor response, but if you still teach the students the same thing and you don't address the concern, then you haven’t changed anything at all.

LEON BYNER: All right. Now, you've just announced that there's going to be an extra one-point-two or one-point-three billion dollars extra for education funding. How is that going to benefit South Australia? What will that mean for this state?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, what it will mean is that the funds in that [$1.2 billion] will flow to Western Australia, the Northern Territory and Queensland. And that means that the money that South Australia - New South Wales, Victoria, Tasmania et cetera - expected to get over the next four years will not be under any threat whatsoever. They will get the full tote odds from the Commonwealth, and then it'll be up to the states and territories who've signed agreements to do the right thing. And, unfortunately, in South Australia - as Jennifer Rankine confirmed this morning - they've cut $230 million of education from now until 2017. So we have the State Labor Government lecturing the Commonwealth about funding while, behind the back door, they are taking $230 million out of school education.

LEON BYNER: Well, surely, given that you're going to give federal funding to the expectation that was given before the election, so that it is a unity ticket now, what has been...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: More so actually, with more in.

LEON BYNER: All right. Well, then, surely, you can have something to do with the State Government's decision to pull money out because, in effect, if what you're saying is right - and I heard Ms Rankine say it today - what you're doing is you're putting in more money - you're saying it's more, yet they're taking money out. So it's going in one end and coming out the other.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It's very unfortunate. And, at the end of the day, Leon, the electors of South Australia or any other state should punish state governments - Labor or Liberal - for cutting education spending when the Commonwealth is putting more money in.

LEON BYNER: All right. Look, I need to know this. For those people listening today who've got children who are barely literate, or who have other challenges because they can't get extra help, what's going to happen to them? What will this mean to them? Anything?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, what it means is the Commonwealth is going to improve the quality of our teachers because a good quality teacher can produce fantastic results. But a poor quality teacher never will be able to do so. We're going to put more money into phonics and orthodox teaching. We're going to explain to parents how they can be better engaged with their children through homework rather than excluding parents or pushing parents away. We're going to say you need to be deeply engaged in your children's education. And we're going to expand principal autonomy because all studies - international and domestic - indicate that the more autonomy in a school, the better the outcomes and results for students and the higher the expectations on those students.

LEON BYNER: Okay. Look, I know you have to go. But before you do I need you to say because Ms Rankine, the Education Minister, has called in. And I think it's appropriate that the public get to hear both sides of this. So would you hang on for a moment? I won't keep you too long, Christopher.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Sure.

LEON BYNER: Jennifer Rankine, Christopher Pyne, the Federal Minister, has just said that you're taking money out of the education system where he's putting extra in. What do you say to that?

JENNIFER RANKINE: Well, Christopher's had a very bad few days and he's grasping at any straw. He's been caught out and he's desperately now trying to catch up. What he omits to say, of course, is in the very same budget papers that efficiency dividends were identified over the next few years. There's also an injection of $1.8 billion of additional funds into the Department of Education and Child Development. What Christopher fails to do is commit to the education system getting the same amount of money that was agreed to with the Commonwealth Government, and that is over a six‑year period. Now, he's desperate for people to now think that he had these plans all along. But Friday at the Ministerial Council meeting it was very clear. His plan was to give state money for one year for - across all the education...

LEON BYNER: [Interrupts]. But that's changed now, hasn't it?

JENNIFER RANKINE: Well, we don't know, Leon. All we ever hear from Christopher is in media announcements, and they change on a daily basis.

LEON BYNER: All right. Well, Christopher's there. Christopher, could you answer Ms Rankine's comments?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yes, well once again unfortunately, Jennifer Rankine has turned to the personal rather than the policy and I think parents are really seriously over it. The truth is she's already getting - she's also concerned that yes, South Australia is cutting $230 million from their education budgets and she's now trying to pretend that yesterday's announcement didn't happen. Now when the circumstances change they need to be recognised. Yesterday we announced that we're putting one-point-two billion dollars back into education that Labor took out in the pre-election fiscal outlook and that's why Bill Shorten has been so embarrassed about this issue, because the truth is, he's took one-point-two billion out. We're putting it back in and Jennifer Rankine is taking $230 million out in the South Australian education budget. She hasn't denied it; it fact she's confirmed it.

LEON BYNER: All right Christopher, I know you have to go. Jennifer, these savings that have been identified, where will they come from? The curriculum, child protection - where will they come from?

JENNIFER RANKINE: Well, they won't come from teachers, they won't from schools...

LEON BYNER: Child protection, curriculum?

JENNIFER RANKINE: No, they will not come from child protection and as I said, Leon, we're injecting an additional $1.8 billion dollars.

LEON BYNER: What about Curriculum - they won't come from the curriculum?

JENNIFER RANKINE: Well interestingly, we on Friday had Secondary Curriculum for approval development developed by the agency that does this, ACARA, and Christopher wouldn't allow endorsement of that, so, not enabling that to progress. He's saying on one hand he doesn't want to interfere with what schools do but on the other he wants to drive absolutely every aspect of education. Now let me be really clear with your listeners, Leon - we are injecting $1.8 billion of additional money into the Department of Education and Child Development.

LEON BYNER: Can I ask you this? That money has obviously got to flow into some conversion where it helps the students, so who's going to decide who gets the funding? Let me put it to you this way. The mums and dads listening today - let's say they've got a daughter or son with Asperger's or dyslexia or they're slow learners - are they going to be able to go to somebody at the school and say I have an issue for which my child needs help. Can I have some of this funding please?

JENNIFER RANKINE: Leon, this is the absolute fundamental focus of the Gonski reforms that Christopher Pyne was determined to scrap on Friday. This is about ensuring no matter where a child goes to school or no matter where they live, they have the same base level of funding and those with additional needs had additional funds targeted at them.

LEON BYNER: Who do they ask? So what I want to know is, how is this going to work? We know Mr Pyne today has announced an extra billion dollars plus, and you've identified some savings but you've ruled out child protection, curriculum and a few other areas that are integral...

JENNIFER RANKINE: The other thing Leon was our budget had been brought down before we signed the Gonski deal, so we were open and honest with the Federal Government about the way forward.

LEON BYNER: But I get back to my fundamental point though - if a child is in [unclear], who does the parent go to, to get extra help with this money?

JENNIFER RANKINE: Well obviously Leon, the schools will be managing budgets; the schools will have targeted funding for children with special needs. We are developing...

LEON BYNER: So they're going to get more money?

JENNIFER RANKINE: Yes. We are developing our partnerships, groupings of schools so that schools may be able to, in fact, share specialist people in particular regions. So this money is all targeted at children's education.

LEON BYNER: Let me put this another way. Well, of course it is, except I think the important thing here is who gets to say where the money is spent, because is it going to be a bureaucrat in the Department or is going to be the people at the school at ground level that know where the money's needed straight away?

JENNIFER RANKINE: Well, there will be increases in school budgets, because as I said, the money is targeted and calculated based on each individual child. There will be some system-wide reforms; there will be some localised reforms and assistance and there will be some individual assistance targeted directly in schools. So we will make sure we maximise the resources but they will be targeted and ensuring every kid in South Australia gets a chance. Interestingly, we did not hear a dicky-bird about Christopher Pyne's slashing millions of dollars out of education from one Liberal MP, let alone Stephen Marshall.

LEON BYNER: Okay, let me ask you this. There was a story a while ago and you'd be aware of it, that there are a number of schools who are using school money to pay power bills - that is Curriculum and other money, who have to fundraise. Have we found out more about this? Are we going to disallow this or are we going to say to schools, once you're over your budget, bad luck?

JENNIFER RANKINE: Well Leon, I've seen reports through from the people that run the budget here in South Australia and our schools have something like over three-hundred million dollars in their bank accounts. And what we have seen since the drought has finished, is that people are using more water. We've provided funding for people to have energy-efficiencies in their schools. They have budgets, but if there is a specific difficulty they have all been told, please contact Central Office and we'll see what we can do.

LEON BYNER: Well okay, so they're not going to have to fundraise to pay power bills?

JENNIFER RANKINE: People do not have to fundraise to pay power bills and in fact parents should ask their Governing Council how much money they've actually got in the bank.

LEON BYNER: All right. Thanks Jennifer. Well you might have some interesting comments to make over the responses today. 

Ends