2SM – Mornings with John Laws

E&OE TRANSCRIPT 2SM – Mornings with John Laws 23/05/2014 SUBJECT: BUDGET 2014 JOHN LAWS: Police and demonstrators clashed outside a Liberal Party debate at Sydney University last night. It was not a good look. Protesters attempted to force themselves into St John's College where the debate was being - they say that they were student - the debate was being adjudicated by our Education Minister, Christopher Pyne. Now, 50 riot squad officers remained on the scene until the debate had finished. We've already seen angry protesters attack former Liberal MP Sophie Mirabella and the Foreign Minister Julie Bishop. The protests are in response to proposed changes to tertiary education which were outlined in the Federal Budget. Now, I think that they were pretty badly behaved, those students, and how many of them were actually students and how many were just the old Avis rent-a-crowd? Anyway, joining us on the line is the Education Minister Christopher Pyne. Education Minister, good morning. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning, John. It's good to be with you. It's been a long time. JOHN LAWS: It has been a long time, but it's good to know you're still there, even though you're doing it a bit tough at the moment, Christopher. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, that's true, but good things and big reforms never happen easily and they are very important for more students to be able to get to uni, for our unis to be able to achieve international excellence, for students to make more of a contribution. These things have to happen and I'm very happy to keep arguing the case because I firmly believe in it. JOHN LAWS: Don't you think that if people are making a contribution, no matter to what, that it makes what they're making the contribution towards more valuable, more important to them? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: There's absolutely no doubt about that, and at the moment students contribute about 42 per cent of the cost of the tuition fees and all the other taxpayers pay the other 60 per cent. Now, less than 40 per cent of Australians have a university degree, John. JOHN LAWS: True. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Which means that more than 60 per cent of the population are subsidising students to go to university, which they don't begrudge them, and all I'm asking them to do is contribute 50/50 rather than 60/40, and I think that is a fair request if we want our universities to get the revenue that they need, because the federal taxpayer is currently squeezed for anymore revenue for universities. They haven't got it. JOHN LAWS: Yeah. I'd like to know - I wonder if there are any figures available as to the number of people who start to do a university degree and then fail to finish it. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I know that 24 per cent of students drop out in the first year and one of the reasons that I've extended the demand driven system to the diplomas and associate degree courses, they call them pathways programs, is that they give low SES kids a much better chance of passing an undergraduate degree. So they do one of these pathways programs which are currently capped, I want to free them up so we can have as many of them as we need, and then they go on to university. If they do those, they don't fail. If they don't do them, about a quarter pull out in the first year. JOHN LAWS: Yeah. When you look at your own history, and if you're anything like me you don't want to do that too often, but when you do have a look at your own history, you were pretty much a renegade too in your day. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I was a student protester. Of course I was. Most students are. But I was a student politician and a protester, but, of course, then you leave university and you realise that you can't just keep borrowing money, you can't just keep taxing people when they're already taxed to the hilt, and you can't just keep spending money you haven't got. Now, when you're at uni, it's days of wine and roses, but when you get out into the real world, of course, you actually have to understand that governments have to live within their means just like households do. JOHN LAWS: Okay. So you would agree with me when I say that the attitude of these protesters is absolutely unrealistic. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: And I think it's misguided. I think it is unrealistic and I think it's misguided, because they're actually protesting about the Government extending opportunity for more students to go to university. They can borrow every single dollar up front. They get the best loan they'll ever get in their lives, probably four per cent or less interest rate. They don't have to start paying it back until they earn over $50,000 a year and then they only have to pay two per cent of their income. Now, if you said to the bank manager, John, look, I don't mind borrowing $20,000 from you on the credit card, but you have to understand I'm not going to start paying you back until I earn over $50,000 a year, the bank manager would think that you were stark raving mad. JOHN LAWS: Yeah, he really would. He would think you were. Maybe we are stark raving mad. It's a pretty good deal. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It's a very good deal and I think the students are misguided in protesting about the so-called burden that they carry. They will earn 75 per cent over their lifetime than people who don't go to university. They are being given a very precious gift, and I said to the students the other day that they should buy a bunch of flowers, visit a home near them which is populated with people they know didn't go to university, knock on the door and give them the bunch of flowers and say thank you for paying for 60 per cent of my education. JOHN LAWS: Yeah. It would be a nice thing to do, but I can't see it happening with that bunch I saw on television. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No. Unfortunately I can't either. JOHN LAWS: The Prime Minister has said there is no guarantee that university fees won't double if they're deregulated. Realistically, they could even rise further, couldn't they? I mean, is that something you are a bit concerned about? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, one of the reasons that I've expanded the - or want to expand the system to non-university higher education providers, of which there's about 140 or so, is because that will increase competition in the market very dramatically. It'll be an adrenaline rush of competition and competition will keep prices down and it'll also mean that institutions have to give students a quality experience because, as you say, they'll now be valuing their degree even more than they were before. JOHN LAWS: Yeah. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: And they'll be a more discretionary consumer. So if universities charge exorbitant fees, they won't get any takers. They'll be able to go to other places. JOHN LAWS: I've got a lot of young listeners in regional areas that we care about, obviously. How are they going to be affected? Will they benefit in any way? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Regional universities will be big winners, and why will they big winners? Two ways. Regional universities do a lot of these diploma and associate degree courses, which are used as pathways to their students into undergraduate degrees, whether they're in regional unis or city unis. So they're going to get a big benefit from us lifting the cap on those places. But the second thing we're doing is we're massively expanding Commonwealth scholarships and we've said that the universities will be able to decide how they award those scholarships, as long as it's based on merit and also disadvantage, but they can say that they'll be bursaries for living expenses or they'll be free tuition fees or they'll be extra help to get through uni, and so if a regional student needs to move to the town or move elsewhere or live in the town during the week and go back on the weekends, whatever, the university will be able to decide if they can give them a scholarship or a bursary. So we're bringing a lot more flexibility into the system and regional universities, the reason there's been quite a bit of support from the Regional Universities Network is that they can see that this will be good for the regional students. JOHN LAWS: Okay. Well, that's good you're getting support from the regional universities, but you need support from the Greens and Labor. Are you going to get that? I doubt it. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, John, I think we'll get our alliance of support for each of the measures, but it might be a different alliance for each one. So I don't think the Greens will vote against any of the extra spending measures because they love extra spending, and, of course, the demand driven system and expanding it to the private providers will actually cost us money. Labor certainly won't vote for the abolition of the Higher Education Contribution Scheme, which Clive Palmer is proposing, because they know that would wreak havoc on our universities and be giving up a $52 billion asset that the Government holds, which is this higher education debt. So I think that around the edges, of course, we'll negotiate with the Senate, with the crossbenchers, with Clive Palmer, with whom I have a very good relationship and I want to make sure that we get the vast majority of this package, but I'm a politician and I recognise that the Senate needs to be worked with, and I think we'll get the vast majority of it through. JOHN LAWS: Yeah, okay. I have, as you have, a good relationship with Clive Palmer. I have a very good relationship with the tradies, and I tell you what I'm worried about them - the tool allowance is going to be cut from 1 July and replaced with some kind of HECS-like loan. What's the justification behind that? I mean, we've got to get people into trades. We've got to offer them every advantage possible. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, this is a big win for tradies. The Trade Support Loan Program, which would be like the Higher Education Loan Program, will be open to all apprentices and they'll be able to borrow up to $20,000. If they finish their apprenticeship, they'll get a $4000 discount, so they'll only have a $16,000 debt. They won't have to start paying it back until they over 50,000 a year, and then they'll only have to pay back at two per cent of their income, and they'll be able to use that for all the things that they need to finish their apprenticeship. So whether it's a new vehicle or whether it's living expenses, rental assistance, et cetera. It introduces a lot more flexibility in the Tools for Trades Program and it's a better program and it means that a lot more apprentices will be able to complete their apprenticeships. Because at the moment only 50 per cent are, John, and that's obviously a large waste of human capital if we don't use that wisely. JOHN LAWS: Okay. Christopher, could your office send us some details of how the tradies are going to be looked after? Because we have a hell of lot listen to this program, both in the city areas and in the rural areas of Australia. And, as I say, the majority of them are good hard working blokes and I wouldn't like to see them damaged in any way. If you say it's going to be better for them, then obviously I accept that, but I'd love to know some detail if your office could send us some. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I'd be only too happy to. JOHN LAWS: Okay. What have you got planned for the weekend? A bit of relaxation? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, it's been rather a busy week, John, as you can imagine. I've got four children aged six to 13 and so I'm going to try and spend it driving them from one sporting fixture to another and spending some time with them. I'm on the barbecue on Sunday at the Payneham Norwood Under 14 Football Club and tonight I'm going to take the children to the Redlegs game at the Norwood Oval. So I'm going to try and spend some normal time. JOHN LAWS: Pretty good. You're certainly not having a quiet weekend. Serves you right for having those kids. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: [Laughs] Yes, you're absolutely right. JOHN LAWS: But where would we be without them? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Correct. JOHN LAWS: Good to talk to you, Christopher. I hope the weekend is good and I'm sure it will be and I hope your kids are happy and I'm sure they are and we'll talk to each other soon. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Hope so. Thank you, John. JOHN LAWS: Okay. Bye. Christopher Pyne, and he's - not an easy job, Education Minister. To my way of thinking, what he said made sense. If he didn't make sense to you, if you have any criticism, especially the tradies, I thought his explanation in regard to the tradies was suitable and complete, but we'll get some further detail from his office. Now, I'm sure he'll ring his office, just make sure we get that stuff about the tradies because we've got to look after the hard workers of our great country, haven't we? [ends]